5k Anyone? « Videomaker Forums

composite1
Moderator

In spite of the downturn economy my company has been closely researching camera models to augment our existing HD workflow. So far, the one I keep coming back to is the Canon EOS 5D MkII. The only other camera in the same weight-class when it comes to video imagery is the Red Scarlet in that it can shoot in film resolutions of 3-5k. But to achieve that you will spend tens of thousands of dollars to do so. The Mk II however shoots 5k natively in addition to Standard Def, can accept any EOS style lens ever made and you can get the camera body, starter lens, battery and compact flash card for the price of a full Scarlet kit that only shoots 3k. Now since it wasn't designed primarily to be a video camera there are some 'adjustments' the non-photographically trained videographer will have to make to use it. Fortunately, Canon has heeded user complaints and instituted firmware to allow manual control over the video and there are issues concerning sound aquisitition. But overall, it's really looking like a viable option.

Here's a video from Mac Video's Rick Young who give a thorough review of the camera and the systems by redrock micro to make the Mk II both cinematic and videography friendly. To my fellow PC users, just put a chunk of wood between your teeth when they start talking 'macie'. Be advised I'm a crossplatform guy.

http://www.macvideo.tv/camera-technology/features/index.cfm?articleId=117121

Posted 4 months ago # Login to Send PM
jimcvideo
Member

I voted no, but mainly because I don't think the prosumer/pro market wants to go around carrying these dainty things. We like us a beefy camera! :-D . Plus, if I recall, can't these cameras only hold like 12 minutes of video on a card? How fun would it be to have to switch cards 7 times to get a wedding or event video?

I think beyond that, the only other complaint I have is that is the nature of people's attitude towards still cameras. What do you do when you see someone pointing a still camera at you? You strike a pose, maybe say cheese, and hold still so they can take your picture. This is just how we've been raised. So when you go to a video shoot and start pointing this camera that looks just like an average still camera st them, you're bound to get something different than the natural grace you can capture using a video camera that looks, well, like a video camera.

If you want to know my complaint, it bothers me that Canon won't drop this technology into a camcorder body. If they did, I'd buy it in a second.

Barely related note: Casio now makes still cameras that shoot high speed video - up to and beyond 1000 frames per second! I've always wanted a high-speed camera, and these things make that an affordable reality (I've seen some online for under $500). That's a still camera that I'd definitely buy for the video aspect of it.

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jimcvideo
Member

Note that having said that, I still drool over that 5D Mark II, and if I needed still photo capability, I'd get it in a heartbeat.

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daryldrj
Member

It might oneday but for now I agree with jimcvideo. It will be hard to convince people you are serious with a photo camera. it might become popular one day but not quite yet

Posted 4 months ago # Login to Send PM
composite1
Moderator

Jim,

Actually, the 5D MkII shoots a maximum of 12 minutes per clip not per card. A 12 minute clip is a long time for one clip unless you are covering a live continuous event and is a large amount of info for any card based camera.

As for 'going to an event pointing an average still camera', remember the Mk II is a pro rig. If you watched the video it is easy to set it up for cinematic style shooting with mattebox follow focus, shoulder brace and so on until the cows come home or you run out of cash. Another thing, there's nothing 'dainty' about a hardened rubberized magnesium camera body.

Daryl I think you and Jim are dead wrong about Mark II users 'not being taken seriously with a photo camera.' The industry is currently undergoing a 'groundquake' over this thing. Apparently, some major television productions are using these in conjunction with RED cameras and few can tell the difference between the footage.

I do agree as I would like to see this tech go into a dedicated video camera. Canon has definitely heard its users say the same thing but they're being tight-lipped as to whether they will or not. Personally, I'm digging the fact this thing is hideously 'modular'. Forget that you can get a 5k camera for less than $3k without lenses, but that you can outfit this rig inexpensively for ENG, Digital Cinema and pull all of that stuff off quickly to capture handheld imagery and if needed shoot 21 megapixel RAW stills is unbelievable.

I think this is more like when the 'Handycam' came out. Nobody back then ever considered it would revolutionize video and movie production as well as usher in the independent filmmaking industry. Famous last words like, "That smelly noisy thing will never replace the horse and buggy!" come to mind. If you haven't watched the video, you should.

Posted 4 months ago # Login to Send PM
EarlC
Moderator

The system, its applications and possibilities, in spite of the high resolution imaging, simply does not overwhelm me when I am focused so strongly on pure video production, and looking at HD options as I upgrade from SD. I need not aim so high for the bountiful marketplace I pursue.

Posted 4 months ago # Login to Send PM
composite1
Moderator

"I need not aim so high for the bountiful marketplace I pursue."

Earl,

I pray we all find some of that bountiful marketplace. I too 'am not overwhelmed' but I can smell a change in the air. As one who has one foot in video production and the other in independent filmmaking I can see the implications for versatility such a camera arises. Though I have no immediate intention as to get 'six' Mk II's to use simultaneously in my productions as was mentioned in the video, I can sure see the value of two. I am amazed at how fast the workflow is developing for this camera. Back in '06-'07 when I was looking at the XLH1 it wasn't until mid '08 before a credible workflow was developed. I just think this rig will uniquely bridge the gaps between novice and pro still and video producers.

Posted 4 months ago # Login to Send PM
TDedmonSBP
Member

I must say, I heard about this camera when it first came out and was skeptical. I know Canon makes supremely good products and my first two camcorders were made by them, but I wasn't sure how the adaptability would come across and at what price. After watching that video, I am really concidering taking a close look when I need a new rig. I do a lot of documentary and run-and-gun style shooting and this seems like a night and day comparison to the handcam-style cams that I typically use as backup. My only concern is that it seems like making that into a viable resource for video or filmmaking, one would have to inverst a lot of money in the extras (rail systems, etc.) which could hold back its feasability for the pay-as-you-go upgraders such as myself. That said, this seems like a great tool for anyone looking to be ready to go at any time day or night. One thing that certainly stood out to me is the lack of need for a huge battery pack such as is the case with pro cameras such as my GY-HD10u.

Great post composite, I will be keeping an eye on this one.

Posted 4 months ago # Login to Send PM
composite1
Moderator

"My only concern is that it seems like making that into a viable
resource for video or filmmaking, one would have to inverst a lot of
money in the extras (rail systems, etc.) which could hold back its
feasability for the pay-as-you-go upgraders such as myself."

TD,

That's a valid concern. However, Redrock Micro maker of the cinema rigs in the video make some very affordable systems that depending on what you're 'shooting for' can run low as a cheap PC workstation to slightly less for a full-blown kit than what you'd blow on a macbook pro laptop. So again Canon has those of us who are seriously looking at this rig as a potential purchase running out of reasons to not buy.

I am concerned about battery power. One great thing about our JVC pro cam's is we can slap an Anton Bauer, NRG, or an IDX battery on the back and can look forward to 2 hours minimum shooting. If either Canon has whipped up an inexpensive battery or an aftermarket solution exists to keep the camera 'rolling' for practical periods of time, then yet another 'reason' will be shot down.

Here's a look at some of the systems available from Redrock Micro for DSLR video rigs and the major brands of cams used by many of us in the forums:

http://shopping.netsuite.com/s.nl/c.472981/sc.2/category.1789/.f

Glad you like the post BTW.

Posted 4 months ago # Login to Send PM
TDedmonSBP
Member

Yeah I was checking out the 5d on B&H after I posted here last night , apparently they make a battery grip that holds two battery packs or 6AAs

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/590457-REG/Canon_3353B001_Battery_Grip_BG_E6.html#reviews

The prices on the support rigs were much cheaper than expected, I guess I am too accustomed to Arri's prices...seems like you are right, we are running out of excuses.

Posted 4 months ago # Login to Send PM
NormanWillis
Member

Hi Comp.

If you did buy this rig and had no lenses already, which lens would you get to go with it?

Also, is it possible to capture uncompressed with this camera? Does it have HDMI out?

Thank you,

Norman

Posted 4 months ago # Login to Send PM
composite1
Moderator

Norman,

Normally with still rigs I roll with 2 zooms (one wide, one telephoto) and if something specific is needed, I'll include the rental/purchase of said item in the budget. With something like this, I don't believe favors zooms so I'd use normal lenses ranging from 28mm to 105mm. This is a pretty good range that can be built up over time for 'pay-as-you-go' types. Remember, the 'faster' the lens (lowest f/stop) the more it's going to cost. The catch is, the faster the lens the more shallow depth of field you can create and the lower the level of light you can work in. I mention this stuff for those who would be interested in using the Mk II in conjuction with the Redrock Micro kits. If you don't plan on putting this thing on rails, then the 2 zooms mentioned earlier will cover the majority of what you shoot. I use them to shoot everything from portraits to aerials and have been well served.

Yes it does have HDMI out so potentially, you can do live capture. I haven't heard of anyone doing it yet though. Here's a link with specs and other reviews:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/583953-REG/Canon_2764B003_EOS_5D_Mark_II.html#features

And, you're welcome.

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composite1
Moderator

TD,

Thanks for the tip on the battery grip. I should have realized they would have one since they made the 10D. I notice my 'excuse list' hath dwindled.

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daryldrj
Member

Its cool to diagree it was just my first thought that is all. I was picturing in my head someone showing up to one of our shoots for our film with a photo camera and saying I am ready. I would have to think real hard before i took what he was doing seriously. I do agree that this is a cool camera and i have seen on the internet what it can do. It blows away any video camera i got when it comes to resolution and how nice the video looked. I wish I could get that kinda quality out of my productions. It was just like I said my first thought was... But hey if someone can add this to their arsonal I would go for it if I had the money. If it is shooting video as good as Red is than you can't beat that.

Daryl

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NormanWillis
Member

http://www.macvideo.tv/camera-technology/features/index.cfm?articleId=117121

This video was great. about 25 minutes.

I think i am going to go canon HF S10 as a stopgap and then wait for the EOS 6, or whatever they do next, to get away from the basic limitations of the EOS 5D (12 min max, 30p only).

I am doing more research, will post my proposed Indie rig design when I've got it more together.

Posted 4 months ago # Login to Send PM
composite1
Moderator

"I was picturing in my head someone showing up to one ofÂ our shoots for
our film with a photo camera and saying I am ready. I would have to
think real hard before i took what he was doing seriously."

Daryl,

No worries. This echoes the discussion in the 'Is a videographer a journalist' thread. I ran into the same kind of thing when I showed up to big events with a handycam way back when. After people saw the footage I got with a 'not serious' camera, that attitude changed. Besides, if the shooter showed up and displayed a pro demeanor and seemed to know their chops, I'd give them the BOD until I saw the work. Now, if they showed up with a point and shoot or a 'happy cam' and no supplemental gear to increase their production values (i.e. filters, add-on lenses, etc.) it would raise an eyebrow.

Norman,

Again the '12 minute' limit is per clip. Yes a 4GB card will only hold one 12 minute continous shot. A 32GB card will hold more. Considering the average 'cut shot' is 10 seconds long I don't see what the malfunction is. I mean ask yourself, 'what are you going to shoot for 12 minutes straight without cutting?' Outside of surveillance footage, a concert or process research footage, 12 minutes is one long clip. As for the 30p, that's not an issue either. The tough part is converting it from the H.264 codec into whatever you're nle project settings are. FCP, Premiere, Avid and now Vegas can convert it so you don't necessarily need to get a copy of quicktime pro to do it. I hear editors convert the files into 24p, 25p, and 29.97 with no prob.

I figure the main thing that would run potential buyers off is lenses. If you don't already have any EOS lenses, you'll have to pony up for one or two to get started. You don't want to break the bank, but you don't want El Cheapo (not the line of mini-marts) lenses either because they won't have glass that can take advantage of the advanced CMOS in the Mk II.

Oh, and the video you posted is the same one I introed the post with.

Posted 4 months ago # Login to Send PM
NormanWillis
Member

Hi Comp.

I apologize for posting the same video. Anyhow, I thought it was very good.

>>Again the '12 minute' limit is per clip. Yes a 4GB card will only hold one 12 minute continous shot. A 32GB card will hold more. Considering the average 'cut shot' is 10 seconds long I don't see what the malfunction is. I mean ask yourself, 'what are you going to shoot for 12 minutes straight without cutting?'

Interviews. Camp meetings. Classes and teachings. Lots of stuff. I cannot afford a break in the footage. But I will definitely keep an eye open for the EOS 6, or whatever comes out next.

To me, the form factor is a non-issue; but I've got to be able to get at least an hour, preferably three.

Norman

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TDedmonSBP
Member

Norman,

out of curiosity do you currently run tape or flash media cameras? The reason I ask is because the benefit of not having to capture might outweigh the desire to never hit the start/stop button. I make no claim about any great experience level, but I have spent my fair share of time with a cam. Recently I have been using a Canon HF10 as my secondary camera and it will record an hour at a time to a card (8Gig), but if I break it up by takes, then when I load it on the computer, it takes half the record time (rather than real-time like tape) and I know exactly what each one is. After it's copied, I just wait until the next card needs a change and it's a matter of seconds. Yes it does slow me down a little bit, but there are some advantages.

Now, having said that, I want it to be clear that you are well entitled to your opinion and I am not trying to ruffle feathers. It is simply a case of having once felt the same way you do about things like that.

Posted 4 months ago # Login to Send PM
composite1
Moderator

I think the disconnect here for lack of a precise term, is the perception of the potential workflow the camera is capable. It is my perception that despite Canon thinking they've created a rig for the journeyman photog looking to score some video betwixt still shots and videographers looking at it as a journeyman's replacement for the standard video cam. Both perceptions are way off base.

What we have here in the Mk II is something new. To my mind, this rig is something you would shoot your very best work with. Who needs their 'camp meetings', classes and other mundane video work shot in 5k? The Mk II strikes me as a tool the indy producer would use to hit stuff out of the ballpark. In '07 at NAB I saw a theater demo of 2k through 6k and was blown away by the imagery. According to all reports, the video shot with the Mk II can hold up to a 35mm theatrical print blow-up.

In my opinion, this is a 'next level' tool for getting those higher-end clients or making the move to independent feature film or broadcast TV making. There is an expansive selection of video cameras to take care of the 'light work'. Getting the Mk II is like getting that 'jetpack' you always wanted as a kid or a master set of paintbrushes. Do you use the jetpack just to go to the supermarket? Do you use the master brushes to paint your garage? I sincerly hope not.

Posted 4 months ago # Login to Send PM
NormanWillis
Member

Hey Trae,

I'm cool with people having different opinions, and different needs. It's not a problem with me.

I just sold and shipped both my HDV cameras. I still have a really nice Canon GL2 with an XLR adapter and a DM-50 shotgun microphone, along with a hard case and about 35 tapes, if anyone is interested. It is a great deal, and I plan to list it on Ebay today.

I am looking to purchase the Canon HF S10 today. It works off of SDHC cards, if one wants AVCHD. However, what I want is not AVCHD, but uncompressed live capture. I am not worried about start/stop issues at all. I can start and stop; that does not bother me. What bothers me is then I have a two hour interview with someone, and I need things broadcast quality, and it shuts down after about 12 minutes. That would mess me up bigtime.

Norman

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NormanWillis
Member
Another option for those who want to go uncompressed/4-5K:

Convergent Designs is coming out with a new NanoFlash recorder.Â The thing captures HDMI and HD-SDI in, and reads out to inexpensive compact flash cards.Â The specs on this thing are amazing.

Selectable Quality / Record Rates
http://www.convergent-design.com/CD_Products_nanoFlash.htm

They want about $3,000.00 for it, but just strap it to your camcorder, and hook up the HDMI out to the HDMI in, then you can get incredible quality, and are really mobile; and you can take as long of clips as you need.

If 12 minutes is not a limitation for you (as it is for me) then the EOS 5D might be a superior way to go, because of the superb quality of the optics.

It is just another option.

Norman
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TDedmonSBP
Member

Why hasn't there been any buzz over the Nikon D90 or D5000? Each shoot video, granted it is as 720p rather than 1080, but I would think the name Nikon would make up for that in terms of people talking about them. Obviously, they are almost half the pixelage, but I would think by being first to the game I would have heard more about it. Perhaps Canon just did it better, and this time that mattered.

In case you aren't familiar:

http://imaging.nikon.com/products/imaging/lineup/digitalcamera/slr/d90/index.htm

http://imaging.nikon.com/products/imaging/lineup/digitalcamera/slr/d5000/index.htm

Posted 4 months ago # Login to Send PM
NormanWillis
Member

Yeah, I'm locked on a minimum of 1080p.

I understand that the EOS 5D is now used as a replacement for the $50K+ RED ONE camera in some applications. I imagine that saying $47,000.00 per camera might cause quite a stir.

Posted 4 months ago # Login to Send PM
composite1
Moderator

TD,

I actually looked at the Nikon D90 first as it's 720p HD format would precisely compliment our JVC 200UB's. However, we already have Canon EOS DSLR's in our inventory and would need only pick up a couple more lenses and batteries. Now that it's no problem to downres from 1080p to 720p the higher pixel value isn't a problem. Also, despite my respect for the Nikon line the Mk II is just a better camera. Either brand however has started something new.

Norman,

Thanks for the info on the nanoFlash. That looks like it would augment the recording capabilities of any camera capable of interfacing with it. Actually, looks to be the perfect solution to the 12 minute clip limit of the Mk II as you can go live through its HDMI out into the nanoFlash. If you can use the the nano's HDMI out as a pass-through to a monitor and still capture look out!

Inspite of this, I still think using 2-5k for depositions or meetings that are not intended for inclusion for a broadcast or theatrical release production is overkill. And you are correct, the Mk II is the 'poorman's RED!' Provided the nanoFlash does what it says it can, then the Mk II will literally be in the same weight-class with a $50,000+ RED ONE camera system.

Posted 4 months ago # Login to Send PM
NormanWillis
Member

Hi Comp.

>>Actually, looks to be the perfect solution to the 12 minute clip limit of the Mk II as you can go live through its HDMI out into the nanoFlash. If you can use the the nano's HDMI out as a pass-through to a monitor and still capture look out!

Look out, indeed.

Yes, this just occurred to me as well. I think I will write Canon, and see if one could bypass the 12-minute clip thing with the nanoFlash, or with the BMD Intensity Pro. If so, then the EOS might be a much better choice!

Posted 4 months ago # Login to Send PM
NormanWillis
Member

Here is my query to Canon:

INQUIRY: On the Canon EOS 5D Mk2 camera, does the 12 minute clip
limitation also limit live HDMI out? Or does it only apply to the
recordings to compact flash cards?
In other words, can I record continuously with the EOS 5D via the HDMI
out if I have either an HDMI capture card, or an external flash memory
card?
Also, what is the maximum HDMI cable length I could use between the
camera and the capture card, before there was any appreciable 1080/30p
signal degradation?

Here is Canon's response.

>>Dear Nazarene Israel:

Thank you for writing to us. We value you as a Canon customer and
appreciate the opportunity to assist you.

The 12 minute limit is imposed by the buffer (filling up), not the
memory card or HDMI out.

You should be able to use an HDMI cable of up to 158 meters before you
have to boost the signal.

Please let us know if we can be of any further assistance with your EOS
5D.

Thank you for choosing Canon.

Sincerely,

Richard
Technical Support Representative

That sounds like there is a 12 minute limit regardless of the destination. I wrote him back to confirm.

Posted 4 months ago # Login to Send PM
composite1
Moderator

"... sounds like there is a 12 minute limit regardless of the destination."

Norman,

Sounds odd, but if when in the live mode the data coming in from the CMOS chip isn't 'free flowing' like with a CCD chip, there may be a buffer issue. I'm thinking there may be a heat issue as I believe may have been mentioned in the video review. Personally, I don't think they really know for sure yet. Either way, I think that with the nanoFlash unit or some similar portable storage device will set the Mk II into the heavyweight film making class. Productions are already ramping up with the Mk II in mind and gives me further motive to not consider this camera for 'journeyman' work.

A 158m HDMI cable huh? Wonder how much that would run at Markertek?

Posted 4 months ago # Login to Send PM
NormanWillis
Member

>>A 158m HDMI cable huh? Wonder how much that would run at Markertek?

I dunno, but you can get a 100 foot cable at TD for $150.00.

>>Personally, I don't think they really know for sure yet. Either way, I think that with the nanoFlash unit or some similar portable storage device will set the Mk II into the heavyweight film making class. Productions are already ramping up with the Mk II in mind and gives me further motive to not consider this camera for 'journeyman' work.

Well, it is obviously the real deal, or else why are they going 50-50 with the RED ONE?

I am just weighing my options, and considering the fact that Canon is probably going to come out with the first true 'hybrid' camera in about a year. If I can use my little pocket HF S10 until that time for the cost of a 200 dollar card and a 150 dollar cable, I think I should pocket the difference, and save it towards either my next camera, or my next NLE (like on the other thread). 'dyu know whats I mean?

But now I really dunno about that tech support. He wrote back (I think the same guy) to a different question, and said I might be able to go 100 feet, with a good booster:

>>Dear Nazarene Israel:

We appreciate your continued correspondence regarding HDMI cable.

The 15 meter length I quoted earlier is approximately 50 feet.

Please keep in mind these are estimates. The maximum length of cable you
can use is affected by things such as cable quality, number and quality
of connections among other things.

You should be able to go up to 100 feet with a good quality booster,
however, we don't have information on how this is performed.

Please let us know if we can be of any further assistance with your EOS
5D Mark II.

Thank you for choosing Canon.

Sincerely,

Richard
Technical Support Representative

So is this two guys in two bodies? or two guys in one body? (lol)

Posted 4 months ago # Login to Send PM
NormanWillis
Member

My rich friend in Minnesota/Florida (he has two houses) has been talking to me about how to buy tech. He says to research, research, research; and to forestall purchases as long as you possibly can. Then when (and only when) it is time, get just what you need (without gold plating). I thought that was nuts, but then the more I learn about this fast-changing world of computer and video technology, the more I realize that things change so fast there is just no way to keep up with the technology.

So if I had to buy today, in my shoes (not having to be mobile, but needing longer unattended record times) I would probably go for my little 'pocket' HF S10 and a BMD Intensity Pro; and then save my money for a new hybrid camera that will probably be out in no more than a year. But if I were in your shoes I might do something different. I dunno. But if you ask me, unless you need that camera now, wait just a little while, and the whole landscape will change.

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NormanWillis
Member

Here's Tiger Direct's sales pitch:

>>Dear Valued Customer:
Thank you for your email,

We do understand your concern, according to our research the signal loss would depend on the material used in the HDMI cable, although the
recommended length is 30 ft, you will still be able to achieve good HDMI signals in cable 100 ft or longer. one example of which is the Ultra 500HI 10.2Gbps 100-Foot 1080p HDMI Male/Male HDTV Cable (Item Number: ULT40263)

I guess if I don't have money for the nanoFlash I could try a short cable and a long one. Get the rig to work on the short one. Then try the long one, and see if it works: but it probably will, or else why does a reputable company like Ultra sell them?

Norman

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