To Build or not to Build....

(166 posts)
  • Started 8 months ago by composite1
  • Latest reply from composite1
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    1. composite1
      Moderator

      composite1

      Crafters,

      I just noticed your input  and  did not mean to blow you off (sorry about that.) Getting a custom build from a 'builder shop' is quite a viable option. All of our standard workstations are pre-builts and save us a ton of money. I'm at the stage now where I'm listed as a dealer and can get parts at dealer prices (much cheaper than retail) so I can still save more money building a high-end rig than getting someone to do it for me. The advantages of a reputable builder shop are a) they'll do all the heavy lifting for you (including testing), and b) if they are reputable, they'll save you more money than if you'd got something similar from the big names. Eventually, you'll want to take the plunge yourself and build your own. One thing I did was learn from the builders putting together my personal rigs way back when. The first few 'puters I built were all solid (except for one in which the mobo croaked) and there were some 'hair pulling sessions in the early days (WHY ISN'T THIS WORKING!?!?) 10 times out of 10 it turned out to just be my lack of knowledge and the eleventh it was actually the gear or software. I'd always get it cleared up and move on. As I'll continue to state, 'building isn't for everyone'. What I now find not difficult would make many jump off a bridge in frustration (producing's like that too but that's another post.)

      Norman,

      "I liked this article, but a lot of it went over my head.  Does this box do everything that the Matrox RT.X2 does, plus it also translates to FCP (in case I ever get a Mac)?"

      Side by side the Matrox and the Multi-Bridge Pro do similar things. Both have PCIex interface cards and both are breakout boxes combined with the cards will give supported NLE programs hardware supported render acceleration. Where they really start to differ is in price and scope of input/output. The Matrox RTX2 has a 'step down' version in the RTX2LE which btw is cheaper and does similar stuff. The Multibridge Pro2 is the 'step down' version of the Multibridge Eclipse which is a muuuuuuuuuuch more affordable alternative to the Avid Nitris line of breakout boxes and does nearly the same thing. The Eclipse Pro2 does everything the Eclipse does (except) it has half the array of pro connections and no cool flashing LED's on the front. That's the huge difference between the Pro2 and the Matrox. The RTX2 breakout box doesn't have professional connections for audio and video. No HDMI (for straight to NLE capture), no XLR's, BNC's for HD or SD analog connections, no RS-422 port for remote control of pro decks and no SDI connectors for affordable pro cameras like Canon's XH-G1, XL-H1 or JVC's GYHD250. And if the 'Production God's' willing you get hold of a RED ONE it would be a shame not to be able to just hook it up because you don't have an SDI connection. And yes, if you have collaborators who have been rendered hopelessly subsurvient to the mac empire (that one's for my fellow producer who's been lamenting his wallet lightening purchase of a new G5 setup) then you can easily hook it up to their system and off they go (just wipe up after you're done.) As for whether it will accelerate Vegas, I currently have no answer. Currently, it has drivers to support it but I haven't seen anything more about its performance with Vegas. Lastly, I'd take it in stages; gas your current system far as it can go / you can afford. Then the next system build / get built something with a particular software in mind. The good thing about Avid is they have 'stages' too. Now that Media Composer is their lower - mid-line workhorse they've adapted their breakout boxes to meet the need. Mojo DS is where you'll start (but you'll pay $10k for the software and the breakout box) and those same Production Gods willing, you'll move up to Nitris (cha-CHIIIIINGGGGG!) Either way you may have to buy a pre-built since Avid is certified to work only on HP's, Mac's and maybe specific Dell's. If you research your parts well, you'll probably be able to build something that will run it without grief.

      Global,

      Welcome aboard. And yes they will enhance SD performance. Ohy! You're draggin' the old workhorse along aint'cha? I'm not too sure either of these setups are going to work for you. If your system's mobo doesn't have a PCIex slot fuggeddaboutit! Also, much as I resist getting on the software upgrade 'merry-go-round' Adobe runs us on (I upgrade every other version at max. Those of you who just bought CS4, 5 is due out next year), CS 3, 4 or 5 should be in your immediate future. Yeah, just post your spec's and I'll 'survey the devastation'. Hopefully, I won't have to grab the paddles and yell, "CLEAR!!!"

      Posted 7 months ago # Login to Send PM
    2.  Comp

      No worries. I threw that out there as an option to the build your own to be done with as any saw fit. Running it as a bare bones build type, let them do the dirty work, then you add to it when you get it home sometimes makes the task easier.

      Life is not a guided tour nor a destination.
      It is a journey. Take the time to enjoy your family, friends and surroundings.
      Build memories. Share experiences. Travel at sight speed not light speed. (C)
      Posted 7 months ago # Login to Send PM
    3. NormanWillis
      Member

      normanwillis

      Hi Comp.

      >>The Multibridge Pro2 is the 'step down' version of the Multibridge Eclipse which is a muuuuuuuuuuch more affordable alternative to the Avid Nitris line of breakout boxes and does nearly the same thing.

      You're not kidding.  I priced the Avid Nitris, and they were anywhere from $14-28K.  In contrast, the Multibridge Eclipse is only about $1500, while the Matrox is about $1200 (or less for the diminutive version).  But it sounds like the Multibridge does a whole lot more.

      So the Multibridge Eclipse is not only compatible with CS4, but also with Avid, and accelerates Avid? 

      If it accelerates Avid, then that would be a huge advantage over the Matrox, and for not very much more money.

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    4. GlobalShows
      Member

      User has not uploaded an avatar

      <<I am sure Comp can help you a lot more than I can, but if your speed
      problem has to do with years of programs and improper maintenance, then
      sure, a new machine would help...but what about a simple reformat, and
      then just load the programs you need on a fresh install? 

      If you want to buy a new machine, I am sure that would be faster; but if your old machine was fine, why spend the money?>>

       

      Norman,

      Yeah, that's what I am doing at the moment. However, I can't say I ever thought the old setup was "fine". I always wished it was faster and less buggy, and now I think it probably behooves me to upgrade to CS4. I am working with an HTT  P4, DDR (1), and an X600 gpu. it seems like doing justice to CS4 requires a 64 bit OS and some seriously upgraded hardware. I actually produce live entertainment, and so shooting and editing my own promo is an important step, but not a full time pursuit. My desktop system used to be used for everything related to my business, which occasionally includes video production, and DVD authoring. However, I was on the road creating and touring my last show for about three years and most everything had to get done on my laptop. Now that I am working out of the office pretty much full time again (and since the hideous death of the laptop) I need to get back to using the full CS package to develop new projects including video, audio, brochures, web, etc..

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    5. NormanWillis
      Member

      normanwillis

      Hi Comp.

      This just came into my inbox.

      http://www.broadcast.harris.com/product_portfolio/product_details.asp?sku=X85

      What's up with this?

      Norman

      Posted 7 months ago # Login to Send PM
    6. NormanWillis
      Member

      normanwillis

      Hi Global.

      >>Yeah, that's what I am doing at the moment. However, I can't say I ever thought the old setup was "fine". I always wished it was faster and less buggy, and now I think it probably behooves me to upgrade to PS4. I am working with an HTT  P4, DDR (1), and an X600 gpu. it seems like doing justice to PS4 requires a 64 bit OS and some seriously upgraded hardware. I actually produce live entertainment, and so shooting and editing my own promo is an important step, but not a full time pursuit. My desktop system used to be used for everything related to my business, which occasionally includes video production, and DVD authoring. However, I was on the road creating and touring my last show for about three years and most everything had to get done on my laptop. Now that I am working out of the office pretty much full time again (and since the hideous death of the laptop) I need to get back to using the full CS package to develop new projects including video, audio, brochures, web, etc..

      Well, it sounds to me like you could use a new machine, but Comp is the one who knows, so I'll let him comment.

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    7. GlobalShows
      Member

      User has not uploaded an avatar

      <<If your system's mobo doesn't have a PCIex slot fuggeddaboutit! Also,
      much as I resist getting on the software upgrade 'merry-go-round' Adobe
      runs us on>>

      Hi Comp,

      Yeah. I ended up on this thread because I want to upgrade my software suite and feel my system is way outdated for the potential power of CS4. I was looking into the cost of a new 64bit system and considering building it to stretch the budget. I kind of want to upgrade the old system, but I think I could only salvage the case and the drives. It just seems such a waste to toss out a perfectly good puter (processor, mobo, ram & gpu) just because it maybe isn't up to CS4 standards. So, I'll probably end up with a new system to dedicate to CS4 and keep this one for other tasks. Either way I really don't NEED a new camera so I was wondering if an accelerator should be on my wish list in a non HD NLE environment. So, you have answered Ymy question. Much appreciated. I'll shoot you a post tomorrow with my system specs and I will very much appreciate your input on just how far behind the times my hardware is for PS4. I would love to not have to spend the money for a new workstation, but I just can't abide painfully slow render times, crashing while scrubbing, etc. Thanks.

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    8. GlobalShows
      Member

      User has not uploaded an avatar

      <<Well, it sounds to me like you could use a new machine, but Comp is the one who knows, so I'll let him comment.>>

       

      Thanks for your input Norman. I checked out the VideoGuys after reading your earlier posts (before I ever posted here), and their latest DIY system sounds awesome for the money. I do worry about running into trouble and having nobody to call for support though...

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    9. NormanWillis
      Member

      normanwillis

      Hi Global.

      >>I do worry about running into trouble and having nobody to call for support though...

      I hear that loud and clear. 

      I think perhaps someone like Comp, who has a lot of machines, and who does enough business to get classified as a wholesaler probably needs to build his own systems:
      a: because he loves it, and
      b: because it is cheaper (and in that order).

      However, speaking only for myself, while I love learning about this stuff, I cannot afford to get hammered by downtime.  If Avid is worth the cost of the software because it saves time in editing, then it makes sense that there is also a 'worth it' factor for taking away technical support headaches.

      What we are really discussing here is the old "Make or Buy" question (hence the name of the thread, "To build, or not to build...that is the question."  Or in other words, it is the old "Time is Money" equation; and the variables are different for each of us.

      I don't know anything about Comp's business, but my guess is that someone like Comp has enough machines, and enough guys working for him that it is cheaper for him to educate himself on the tech aspects, and handle the tech issues in house.  He loves it, plus he saves money, and gains expertise he would not otherwise get, which also helps him in a myriad of ways.  Therefore, it is 'worth it' to him to handle the tech issues in house, rather than hiring the job out, simply because of the old 'economy of scale' factor.  It would also be worth it if he was trying to build a larger business.

      However, speaking only for myself, I am on a weekly posting deadline, and if I get knocked down for x number of days (or longer) having to deal with a tech support problem, then I'm toast for that week (which is not pretty).  I have so many other irons in the fire that I cannot afford to take time out to learn how to conquer all of the tech aspects.  Just like I need my car to stay up, I need my machine to stay up; and if it does not, I need help. 

      Actually, as an aside, I drive used cars, but I have four of them, and I pay a mechanic to maintain them.  But that is only because I used to work on cars, and so I know a lot about them, which today equates to, "I know what to buy, and what not to buy."  But if I did not know about cars, then I would probably buy new, just to take the headache away.  The thing I am still pondering for myself is that for me, computers have kind of replaced cars, in a sense.  Computers are not what I do, but they are an integral part of what I do, and by working on them I get to know more about them, which also has ancilliary benefits.  However, with so many other irons in the fire, there is a point of diminishing returns.  Basically, I just need my machine to work; and learning about computers is just another way of getting the 'best bang for the buck' (read: Time is Money).

      Here is what little I have learned about purchasing a machine from Dell:

      While Dell Home and Home Office technical support is really not the best (i know more than some of those guys), Dell Gold Technical Support (Business) has been nothing short of astonishing.  For about $500.00 I got five years coverage by school-trained North American technicians, 24x7 phone or email chat (your choice), and next-day repair service (even if I drop it).  Maybe that's not worth it to everyone, but to me it is worth $500.00 (and you can even get 4-hour service for a couple of hundred more).

      Why is it worth it to me?  For my video editing workstation was a Pentium D 930 at 3.0 GHz (long story).  It was almost three years old, and it went down for the count about four months ago, and after troubleshooting for a while Dell gave me a spanky new Dell Precision T3400 Workstation with a CoreDuo and a larger power supply (525W) to replace it.  The only real thing is that the chipset won't run SLI (even if the power supply was big enough); but I just learned that Avid will support it if I get a Quadro FX3700 (and a slower processor???????).

      >http://www.avid.com/resources/qualified/MediaComposer-NewsCutter-Qualified-PC-Workstations.pdf

      I'm guessing that Avid will run on a CoreDuo Quad Q9650 at 3.0 GHz, but the point is that Dell Gold Technical Support has been very good to me.  (And no, Dell is not paying me to say that.) 

      So while I am going to try to stretch this machine out for as long as I can while I learn Sony and CS4 (and maybe get that MultiBridge Pro 2 Comp is talking about), once I get my dollars saved up for a new machine that runs Avid, I am definitely going to take a long hard look at Dell's offerings before I do anything else, because as a small time operator with lots of other irons in the fire, the Dell Gold service is worth something to me.

      The only thing I would add is that have noticed the manufacturers charge an ultra-premium for some components that you can add later yourself.  For example, Apple charges an ultra-premium for RAM, and Dell charges an ultra-premium for hard drives ($506.00 for each 1TB HDD????).  So I would probably purchase 1 GB of RAM and one boot HDD (or maybe two HDD's in RAID), and then go pick up (faster) Corsair or Crucial low-latency RAM, and Seagate HDD's warrantied for five years.  But even when I buy the components, I would take a look at their service, and not just their price.

      At least as a small-time operator, the lowest price is not always where it is at.  Get up and running and taking away all the headaches is worth some amount of money.  For Comp, assembling his own machines probably makes the most sense, because he has a lot of them, and because he gets wholesale prices.  But for me, because I only have a few systems, it just seems worth it to have someone there to walk me through troubleshooting, and replace hardware components as needed.

      I suppose one could accuse me of making an argument for Apple/Mac, but I don't think I will go that route.  I think I will probably stay PC, just because so much more software is available.  But I will probably also stick to Avid certified machines, at least as a base, which probably means Dell or HP.  (In all due fairness to HP, I probably need to take a look what they have to offer also, because as good as Dell Gold has been to me, a lot of professionals use HP's).

       

       

       

      Posted 7 months ago # Login to Send PM
    10. NormanWillis
      Member

      normanwillis

      Hi Comp.

      I can fit a GTX 260 video card will fit on my 525W PSU.  Do you suppose Avid would probably run on a GTX 260?

      http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-Details.asp?EdpNo=4296573&sku=P450-264

      Or do you suppose I probably need to save up for a Quadro FX3700, like it says on the Avid spec sheet?

      Thank you very much for your help.

      Norman

       

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    11. composite1
      Moderator

      composite1

      "To build or not to build, that is the question...."

      Hey all,

      I'm glad to see this post is catching on. I know that there are numerous folks out there who are 'starering down the barrel' of having to accquire a new system and this issue comes up. Looks like more folks are tossing in their input and already I'm seeing some great points and really good solutions.

      As for why I build, it came purely out of 'self-defense'. To cut down on downtime and costs I had to learn how to do it myself. After I left a large and well-funded production house, I wanted to stay in the biz but could not (more like no way in H377!) afford to do so in the same manner of my old gig. Fortunately, the 'Digital Revolution' was in the toddler stage so I realized with a lot more ingenuity and some cash I could continue working just on a smaller scale. Eventually, as the revolution progressed gear got more powerful / affordable I could 'scale up' my capabilities. Crafters and Norman both bring up excellent points concerning purchasing pre-built systems as either bare bones or complete systems. In my experience I've used both types and in-house builds. Now I only build systems intended for graphic, NLE, or animation work. When I'm fortunate to have techs on hand (high turnover rate 'cause these guys learn what they need to know then roll) I can be more 'loving' toward the building process like a grandparent (just when it starts being a pain, 'here it's your kid you deal with it.) When it's just me, then I have to be exceptionally efficient putting a new system together. One of the few rules I will admit to other than 'stay flexible', is 'always have a backup system up and running'. I never do a build without another system capable of handing the workload on hand.

      Concerning 'what to do with an older system?' that's not too tough a question. Realocate it to tasks it's best suited for. Our current 'old workhorse' was built back in '07 are built for much longer upgrade cycles than ever before.

      This post was longer, but for some reason it cut off the last quarter of it.

      Anyway, here are some of the links I included:

      For newbie builders checkout these: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=&search_query=building+pc+rig&aq=4&oq=building+pc

      To see some of the work my builds have contributed to go to my company site at: http://www.dreadedenterprises.com

       

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    12. composite1
      Moderator

      composite1

      Rambler,

      Welcome to the thread. Yeah, sometimes I notice I'm in 'deep water' with this stuff too! You're on the right track though. Tiger Direct is a great resource for inexpensive pre-built and barebones kits. I've gotten gear from them for years with only two glitches spaced years apart. Now that my outfit is listed as a Dealer (we build our own higher-end rigs and sell them on occasion) we get out gear from a wholesale firm. However, I still recommend TD especially for those breaking into 'the family biz' as a hobby or as a vocation. I do envy a young kid like yourself getting into this at this stage of your life. If you stick with it, by the time you're 30 you'll be building stuff like 'IRON MAN' in your back yard!

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    13. composite1
      Moderator

      composite1

      Norman,

      That GTX 260 is one nice looking card. Yeah, Media Composer should support it (minimum of NVidia Quadro FX 560 or higher or any card in the NVIDA Geoforce class of GPU's). Also, it's a Dual Link capable card. My Geoforce 8800GT's are dual linked (1024GB total memory) and I am sold on multi-cards. Those 260's are 896 RAM instead of 1GB or more like the Quadro's, but a single or dual should get you running quite well. Funny how gamer cards though not constructed specifically for NLE work will get you not only in the ballpark, but in the rotation if you pick the right ones.

      "At least as a small-time operator, the lowest price is not always where it is at. Get up and running and taking away all the headaches is worth some amount of money. For Comp, assembling his own machines probably makes the most sense, because he has a lot of them, and because he gets wholesale prices. But for me, because I only have a few systems, it just seems worth it to have someone there to walk me through troubleshooting, and replace hardware components as needed."

      Actually, we only keep around 5-6 rigs (including admin workstations and laptops) on active duty at any given time we're working on large projects. The rest of the time it's no more than 3. I started doing this when it was just me and 1 system I was using for everything. The reason it's not that big a stretch for me now is because I've been doing this a while. As long as you keep your 'bread and butter' machine up and running, you can work on your builds separately (nights and weekends are my SOP.) Doing it that way keeps the pressure off but will motivate you to get finished (because no matter what system or platform you have, something will cause it to go down when you least want it to so you'll want to have that new rig ready to go when it does.)

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    14. GlobalShows
      Member

      User has not uploaded an avatar

      � <<<Yeah, just post your spec's and I'll 'survey the devastation'. Hopefully, I won't have to grab the paddles and yell, "CLEAR!!!"Yeah, just post your spec's and I'll 'survey the devastation'. Hopefully, I won't have to grab the paddles and yell, "CLEAR!!!">>>

      Hey Comp,

      Thanks in advance for looking this over. It is an off the shelf Sony Viao R VGC-RA826G. I only added a SCSI controller and storage.

      3.4GHz Pentium 4 550 with HTT (shows up as two proc's at 3.4 & 3.39), 800 MGz FSB, 1MB L2 Cache, 1GB PC-3200 400MGz DDR, ATI Radeon X600 XT 256 MB, system on WD 250GB 7200 rpm SATA, storage on Promise 2+0 Stripe SCSI RAID 0 (2 400GB WD drives), Realtek audio card, Windows XP Media Center edition SP2 (had trouble upgrading to SP3 but I'm getting to it).

      Can't explain why I never added a gig of RAM (the packaging says 2GB max - does that still hold true, or was that due to the limitations on chips back then? Can I add bigger and/or better chips?).

      It never seemed particularly "fast" or "solid" running CS1, but it was light years ahead of what I had before. Anyway I guess I could max out the RAM and maybe get a new video card, or maybe more? But the question is whether I will have a decent CS4 platform. I kind of doubt it, and in the end I will still be answering the "buy or build" question. But for now, whaddya tink? Is this worth tweaking on?

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    15. NormanWillis
      Member

      normanwillis

      Hi Comp.

      >>As long as you keep your 'bread and butter' machine up and running, you can work on your builds separately (nights and weekends are my SOP.) Doing it that way keeps the pressure off but will motivate you to get finished (because no matter what system or platform you have, something will cause it to go down when you least want it to so you'll want to have that new rig ready to go when it does.)

      Well that is a good point.  Even when the Dell tech comes out the next day, sometimes he still has to order parts, and that takes a while.  And Dell often uses 'recycled' parts, and the reason they replaced two of my machines was because they were down for months.  So either way I do need to have a second system on hand, don't I?

      Good point.

      Norman

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    16. NormanWillis
      Member

      normanwillis

      Hi Comp.

      >>The reason it's not that big a stretch for me now is because I've been doing this a while. As long as you keep your 'bread and butter' machine up and running, you can work on your builds separately (nights and weekends are my SOP.) Doing it that way keeps the pressure off but will motivate you to get finished (because no matter what system or platform you have, something will cause it to go down when you least want it to so you'll want to have that new rig ready to go when it does.)

      Does anyone make a simple switch so that you can switch between two workstations, and still use the same two monitors?  Or do I need a second set of monitors as well?

      Thank you,

      Norman

      Posted 7 months ago # Login to Send PM
    17.  There are many styles of KVM (Keyboard, Video, Mouse) switchers out there that allow you to do that. VGA style monitor ones are the cheapest at around $45, Then DVI and HDMI. They get expensive (for me at $150+) when you want to switch sound as well.

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    18. NormanWillis
      Member

      normanwillis

      >>There are many styles of KVM (Keyboard, Video, Mouse) switchers out there that allow you to do that. VGA style monitor ones are the cheapest at around $45, Then DVI and HDMI. They get expensive (for me at $150+) when you want to switch sound as well.

      Thanks, Crafters.

      Norman

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    19. composite1
      Moderator

      composite1

      Global,

      You've got a fair rig for doing 'less than broadcast quality DV'. However, if you want to work in HD (and you will) your current system won't push it. Though your CPU's fast enough, you're going to need at minimum 2GB of RAM (4GB or more is better) to help with rendering and other computer processes. Those 'limitations' you mentioned were because of the mobo. The motherboard absolutely dictates how much RAM capability your system will have. Is that a 'Promise' Card you're running the RAID array off of? In our old 'workhorse' (built back in '02 and still going) we couldn't get the fancy onboard raid setup to work. I stuck a $40 Promise card in there and it's still running. Those things were awesome. Also, an 800GB RAID for DV's not bad at all. Now if you're doing uncompressed long-form projects with effects, transitions and animations that space will evaporate quick. On your next choice consider building your RAID with larger drives. On our latest build we raided 3 750GB WD Caviars for a total of 2.25TB for less than $500 last year. Their much cheaper now (crap!)

      In my honest opinion it's time to move to another system. Your Vaio will make a good backup system for DV and or an audio workstation. I don't know how serious you are with your workload, but it's really convenient when you can switch to another system for different tasking while another system is rendering or exporting. Concerning 'buying or building', throughout this post many of the points good and P.I.A. have been mentioned and will apply to your situation. You don't need the 'tech gene' to put together your own rig as the hardest part is getting past what you don't know. Of course that's similar to editing, shooting, producing, writing and just about everything involved with this biz. Fortunately, there are plenty of knowledgeable people around online and in the real-world to help point the way. The comfort I get from our builds is knowing exactly what went into it, how it's configured and how much it cost. There is a certain amount of comfort from the tech support that comes with a purchased product. Often, it gets annoying for me because most tech's are used to dealing with people who know 'jack sprat' about the gear they're using and talk to you like Doctor's do (tell me, what part of your tummy hurts?) I can't count how many times I've spoken to support personnel and I knew more than they did (Adobe, can you hear me?) I've mentioned it before on this thread that no matter which way you go, make sure the system fits the minimum specs of the software your planning to use. Far as OS goes, WinVista Business is a worthy successor to XP Pro. I'd avoid Ultimate for a professional tool like an NLE. Save the space for the graphic, editing and authoring programs you're going to be working with. Besides, do you really need to be able to watch tv on your workstation? I may be old fashioned, but that stuff is more useful on a system dedicated to presentations.

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    20. composite1
      Moderator

      composite1

      "Well that is a good point.  Even when the Dell tech comes out the next day, sometimes he still has to order parts, and that takes a while.  And Dell often uses 'recycled' parts, and the reason they replaced two of my machines was because they were down for months.  So either way I do need to have a second system on hand, don't I?" 

      Norman,

      Yes. When you reach a certain point with your workload you'll need a second system. If nothing more than during the scenario I mentioned with Global concerning going to another machine while another is rendering. In my case, it was high time we had a system capable of doing mid-level finishing work (for finishing like you see in the movies you're going to spend a lot of money!) Now we don't have the same scheduling conflicts for editing time (HOORAH!) and working on multiple projects simultaneously is much less of a hassle.

      The most important reason we build our own NLE's is we don't fool with any of that 'recycled parts' crap. Components are far too inexpensive these days to roll like that especially for what those companies charge you for doing it. Most component companies are good about warranties and returns. More often it's just cheaper to give you a new one. Now I'm not completely down on refurbed parts as you can save money purchasing them in the short term. However (man there's always one of those in the mix), you don't get the same warranty protections as new parts despite them working as well. I'd much rather get a new replacement component under warranty than pay for another cheaper than new refurbed part (I swear the producer in me hates spending money!)

      Contrary to the producer in me, the KVM switch is an alternative but if you're going through the trouble of buying / building a second system, get the monitors. 'Monitors' he said? Yes, more than one. Why two monitors? Two monitors will bring an efficientcy boost to your workflow. Working with Avid taught me the value of two screens. One monitor contains your source / timeline monitors, timeline and primary controls. The second holds the bins, audio level meters, effects editors, effects catalogs and whatever else right where you can see them without constantly having to switch in and out of 'docked menus' despite what Adobe thinks. When it comes to monitors, go big as you can afford. The more space you have to work on the smoother your workflow gets. Cool thing about monitors these days is just like other computer components, you can get good ones for not a whole lot of money. 

      Posted 7 months ago # Login to Send PM
    21. NormanWillis
      Member

      normanwillis

      Hi Comp.

      >> When you reach a certain point with your workload you'll need a second system. If nothing more than during the scenario I mentioned with Global concerning going to another machine while another is rendering.

      Good point.  But do you need "Adobe RGB" monitors, or whatever they are called?  Or will a couple of good Samsungs and Color Correction software do in a pinch, for a guy who is just starting out?

      >>The most important reason we build our own NLE's is we don't fool with any of that 'recycled parts' crap. Components are far too inexpensive these days to roll like that especially for what those companies charge you for doing it.

      Hmm.  Another good point.  (Is there an echo?)  Is it your experience that custom components have a better mean time between failures than Dell or HP?

      >> In my case, it was high time we had a system capable of doing mid-level finishing work (for finishing like you see in the movies you're going to spend a lot of money!)

      And what is 'finishing'?  (You mentioned it in a few other posts, but I never did find out what it is.)  Is it just high-detailed rendering?

      Also, is this a good thread to ask questions about upgrading cameras?

      Thanks.

      Norman

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    22. NormanWillis
      Member

      normanwillis

      Hi Comp.

      If I need to alternate machines because of render times, then I am looking at this Tiger Direct Bare Bones kit.

      http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4601609&Sku=B69-1054

      It looks like a good machine, except the core i7 processor is only 2.66 Ghz.

      >>I've mentioned it before on this thread that no matter which way you go, make sure the system fits the minimum specs of the software your planning to use.

      In checking the minimum specs on Adobe CS4, then want a minimum of 3.4GHz processor for HDV (my cameras are HDV), or dual 2.8 GHz for simple HD. 

      http://www.adobe.com/products/creativesuite/mastercollection/systemreqs/

      Cineform's "NeoScene" codec is supposed to convert HDV (I think) to .avi (either that or simple HD), and Adobe says it only needs a minimum of twin 2.8GHz cores to work with HD (or .avi), but is a quad 2.66 GHz core i7 enough to handle CS4?  Or do I need to jump for the 2.93GHz processor (currently $609!) or the 3.2 GHz processor (currently $1079!).

      Also, the bare bones kit has a 750W PSU, and it only claims to save you $69.94 over purchasing the individual components; so perhaps would it be better to pass on the bare bones kit (as good as it is), and then when prices on the core i7 come down a little bit more, to purchase the individual components, and get the 1000W Corsair PSU, and either the 2.93 GHz or the 3.2 GHz core i7 processor, instead?

      I don't think I have the money to be an 'early adopter' with this one.  But when prices do come down, which processor do I really need?

      Thank you, Comp.

      Norman

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    23. composite1
      Moderator

      composite1

      "the bare bones kit has a 750W PSU, and it only claims to save you
      $69.94 over purchasing the individual components; so perhaps would it
      be better to pass on the bare bones kit (as good as it is), and then
      when prices on the core i7 come down a little bit more, to purchase the
      individual components, and get the 1000W Corsair PSU, and either the
      2.93 GHz or the 3.2 GHz core i7 processor, instead?"

      Norman,

      The main 'benny' you get with a barebones is the relative security of knowing the components have already been tested to work together. There is some savings depending on what your final configuration plans are. With some careful shopping, you'll save more money buying components. Plus you'll have to buy a harddrive, OS and GPU for a barebones anyway. The only thing BB's really hold my interest for is building a render farm. But, for a fast and dirty build BB's are a good option.

      Be advised when it comes to power supplies, you'll need a UPS for backup power/surge protection. Conventional wisdom is to get a UPS at least 200w larger than your power supply to cover your PSU, GPU(s) and monitor(s). After about 700w UPS's get downright expensive.

      A straight 2.66GHz quad duo core will push CS4 and combined with RAM of 4GB or more and one or more 512GB GPU's you'll have a fine working machine. Check the benchmark stats on the core i7's vs quad duo's to see what improvements in speed will be vs cost effectiveness. Then decide what you can work with. The goal is to build something, test it and get it in action in the least amount of time for the least amount of money with the maximum amount of upgradeablity. Remember, 'spend no more than needed'. You can always upgrade. Also, remember CS5 is just around the corner (they'll probably be showcasing it at NAB this year.)

      Posted 7 months ago # Login to Send PM
    24. NormanWillis
      Member

      normanwillis

      Hi Comp.

      >>A straight 2.66GHz quad duo core will push CS4 and combined with RAM of 4GB or more and one or more 512GB GPU's you'll have a fine working machine. Check the benchmark stats on the core i7's vs quad duo's to see what improvements in speed will be vs cost effectiveness. Then decide what you can work with. The goal is to build something, test it and get it in action in the least amount of time for the least amount of money with the maximum amount of upgradeablity. Remember, 'spend no more than needed'. You can always upgrade. Also, remember CS5 is just around the corner (they'll probably be showcasing it at NAB this year.)

      I would think the main thing for me at the moment is just to get started with what I've got.  I think my HTML woes may finally be over (I think maybe the Almighty finally sent me someone really good to help), and so now I can get back to learning Sony Vegas, and then Acid.  I know Vegas works on the number of cores, so the fastest and cheapest thing just right now, at this moment would probably be to get a CoreDuo Quad at 3.0GHz ($330.00 plus shipping), and then get the GTX 260 (for about $199.00).  I already have 8GB fast DDR2 RAM and 4GB ReadyBoost RAM, so that should probably max this box out for the duration of its useful life.  Then just use it, and start saving for the new one?

      After Vegas, I need to finish learning Boris Red.  I figure that will take me a little while.  However, once I get knee deep into Boris, I already know I will need CS4, because to make maximum use of Boris one needs Photoshop (and also After Effects).  I also know I want to use the virtual studios included in Adobe Ultra (which they wrapped into Premier on CS4).  I figure it will probably take me some time to figure all of that out (even with tutorials), but basically once I get started with Boris, I will need CS4 soon thereafter.  I hope CS5 will be out by that time.

      After CS4/5 I am not sure whether I will go for LightWave or Avid, but probably Avid, because the thought of maximizing workflow is very appealing. 

      Somewhere in there, there will have to be enough money to get a new machine....

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    25. NormanWillis
      Member

      normanwillis

      Hi Comp.

      >>Check the benchmark stats on the core i7's vs quad duo's to see what improvements in speed will be vs cost effectiveness.

      I have not checked the benchmark stats.  All I know is that when I looked at the Core i7 ads, they boasted that the Core i7 is some 40% faster for gaming, than the CoreDuo series.  But whether that was with a CoreDuo 2-core or the Core Duo Quad, I do not know.  All I know is that the Quad will double the speed for Sony.

      I think they said that the reason the Core i7 series is so much faster is that it makes better use of the RAM.  It does not need to go through a front-side bus, but it accesses the ram directly (and in three channels, not just two).  So that is supposed to be 40% faster.

      Forty percent would be nice, but I do not have money for a whole new machine at the moment.  All I can do at the moment is just to get those two components, effectively maxing this chassis out, and then use it, while saving for a new one.

      Thank you for your help.

      Norman

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    26. NormanWillis
      Member

      normanwillis

      Hi Comp.

      Like I said in the previous posts, I could probably max this box out for right around $575.00 ($330 for the Quad, and $199 for the GTX 260, plus shipping and tax and all that).  It won't be as fast as a Core i7 machine with SLI, but it would be at least twice as fast (with Sony) as what I have right now, and for $575.00, it is what I can do.  The only thing I do not really have yet is a good long-term backup for D:\.

      D:\ is two 1TB Seagate 7200 RPM internal HDD's in RAID 0.  I use Symantec Backup Exec to backup C:\ to an external Seagate Free Agent 1TB USB drive, and that works very well.  Therefore, I thought I might also use Symantec to back up D:\ to an external drive.  However, the largest thing I could get at the time was a 1.5 TB Seagate Free Agent Extreme on eSata.  I thought that would work, because I only intended to write the used portion of D:\ to the backup.  However, Symantec refuses to back up to it (at all), because it wants a volume at least as large as D:\.

      I suppose that at the moment I can just copy the files straight from D:\ across to the backup drive.  However, while that might work for a while, it seems like a lot of fiddling around, and it is not really what one might call a 'truly redundant array.' 

      I have a Thermaltake eSata HDD dock (as well as the 1.5 TB Seagate Free Agent Extreme).

      http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-Details.asp?EdpNo=3829117&sku=T925-1252&srkey=blacx%20hdd%20esata

      I could pay a premium to get a 2TB HDD to slap in the eSata port, and then Symantec can back up D:\ incrementally.  However, right now 2TB hdd's are at a premium (over $300), so I won't really save me that much money over a Drobo2 with 1TB drives installed; and the Drobo2 is what I really want, since it is a truly redundant array. 

      http://www.amazon.com/Data-Robotics-DR04DD10-FireWire-Automated/dp/B001CZ9ZEE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1239410826&sr=8-1

      Another option would be to get the Drobo2 now, and then work on the processor and the GTX 260 later.

      May I please ask to hear your thoughts?

      Thank you,

      Norman

       

       

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    27. composite1
      Moderator

      composite1

      Norman,

      I applaud your efforts in trying to learn Boris. Boris Fx and their title software came with my first avid kit back in '02 and to this day AFX has been infinitely easier to learn.

      When you get past RAID 0 you start dealing with various stages of redundancy. A striped RAID 0 is the K.I.S.S. version as it simply spreads the drive capacity across all the drives in the array. Unfortunately as you mentioned there is no backup of data so what are the options other than doing a RAID 1-5 setup? One option is the one you discussed by setting up an additional internal array. Another, which is the one we use is to setup an external array. Since drives and harddrive cases are very inexpensive now after we get the internal array up and running, we put together an external setup for use as backups and client project drives. It was simple to put in a pci esata raid card and now we use 1-2TB drives for the job. Cheaper and much less headache to setup and use. Iogear makes a good 4-port pci esata card for less than $50 bucks (spare the pcie slot since most mobo's have only one and you'll want it for your hardware accelerator breakout box.) Worth a look.

      "And what is 'finishing'?  (You mentioned it in a few other posts, but I
      never did find out what it is.)  Is it just high-detailed rendering?"

      Film finishing includes the adding of completed visual and audio effects (including opening mographic titles, cg imagery, final stage color correction, and audio sound design) once 'picture lock' has been determined. A good view of the process can be seen in the 'making of' section of the Iron Man special features DVD. They take you in deep from pre-production to 'finishing' in the editing suites at ILM. Very educational.

      Posted 7 months ago # Login to Send PM
    28. composite1
      Moderator

      composite1

      Norman,

      Yeah, upgrading cameras is another thread but with similar answers.

      Posted 7 months ago # Login to Send PM
    29. NormanWillis
      Member

      normanwillis

      Hi Comp.

      >>Another, which is the one we use is to setup an external array. Since drives and harddrive cases are very inexpensive now after we get the internal array up and running, we put together an external setup for use as backups and client project drives. It was simple to put in a pci esata raid card and now we use 1-2TB drives for the job. Cheaper and much less headache to setup and use. Iogear makes a good 4-port pci esata card for less than $50 bucks (spare the pcie slot since most mobo's have only one and you'll want it for your hardware accelerator breakout box.) Worth a look.

      Great tip.  That should save a lot of money.

      Please let me see if I understand.  If I already have an Iogear esata card and a 1.5 TB eSata external HDD, then I would just get a second one ($179.00), and create a 3TB external RAID 0 array?  Then I let Symantec back up D:\ to this external 3TB array?  That would be much cheaper.

      >>On our latest build we raided 3 750GB WD Caviars for a total of 2.25TB for less than $500 last year.

      How do you like your 3 drive D:\ RAID 0 array?  Would you recommend that for my next machine?  And what does one set as the target drive for finishing/final rendering?

      And how would I back up a three-drive RAID 0 D:\?  Do I put three external eSata drives in RAID 0?  Or do I get four external eSata drives (slightly larger than the internal drives) and back D:\ up into RAID 5? 

      Also, how do you back up your data at project completion?  What is your preferred long-term storage?  Do you burn to tape?  Or do you get different client drives for each new project, and store the old drives on a shelf?  Or do you burn to tape?  Or how do you do that?

      Will an eSata RAID array 0 or 5 array work once it is unplugged from the machine, and then the drives are plugged back in?  Wouldn't that break the array?

      Thank you,

      Norman

       

       

       

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    30. NormanWillis
      Member

      normanwillis

      Hi Comp.

      >>I applaud your efforts in trying to learn Boris. Boris Fx and their title software came with my first avid kit back in '02 and to this day AFX has been infinitely easier to learn.

      Well, thanks; but it's not like it was anything noble on my part.  I had a co-worker who was supposed to help with the video editing, and he wanted Boris, so we got it.  Then he flaked and the whole video editing thing got dumped back into my lap.  That is when I decided, "Well, I already have Boris, so I might as well learn how to use it."  But then I got hooked on how video editing, and how interesting compositing and special effects can make a presentation; so now I am really eager to learn all about it (as well as AFX and LightWave).

      One thing that helped me a lot was the Chris Vadnais "Boris RED" training DVD.  I don't think I would have gotten anywhere without it.

      http://www.amazon.com/Class-Demand-Graffiti-Educational-Training/dp/B00022Z05G/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1239520988&sr=8-1

      Once you get the interface, Boris is really pretty simple.  The main thing is figuring out the X, Y and Z axis things.  But Chris walks you through pretty well.  I must have played it a half dozen times, and I still need to go over the tutorial again because I did not catch it all yet.  However, with your knowledge and experience you would probably just blow right through it in one sitting. 

      You have really helped me a lot, and I would be glad to loan you the DVD if you want.  Now that it looks like the HTML monkey may finally be off my back (at least for a while) the first thing I need to do is to go back and finish learning Vegas.  With everything else going on that will probably take me at least a month (and probably two), although you will probably blow right through it on the first pass. 

      Please let me know if you would like to borrow it, and I will try to send it right out to you.  There is also a manual, if you want.

      http://www.amazon.com/Instant-Boris-Effects-VASST/dp/1578202620/ref=pd_bxgy_d_img_b#

      Thank you very much for your help.

      Norman

       

      Posted 7 months ago # Login to Send PM

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