To Build or not to Build....

61. NormanWillis
    Member

    

    Hi Comp.

    >>Film finishing includes the adding of completed visual and audio effects (including opening mographic titles, cg imagery, final stage color correction, and audio sound design) once 'picture lock' has been determined. A good view of the process can be seen in the 'making of' section of the Iron Man special features DVD. They take you in deep from pre-production to 'finishing' in the editing suites at ILM. Very educational.

    OK.  So what I was calling 'final rendering', you call 'finishing'; probably because you may render on occasion before you hit the actual finished product?

    Yes, the 'making of' was very educational.  Thank you for recommending it.  One thing that was very eye opening was how the talent 'stayed on' and 'stayed up' and positive, even when the cameras were not rolling.  That was very educational.

    Thank you,

    Norman

    Posted 7 months ago # Login to Send PM

62. NormanWillis
    Member

    

    Hi Comp.

    >>Also, much as I resist getting on the software upgrade 'merry-go-round' Adobe runs us on (I upgrade every other version at max. Those of you who just bought CS4, 5 is due out next year), CS 3, 4 or 5 should be in your immediate future.

    I have just started to notice the telltale signs of an impending upgrade in software.  For example, on TD they now wing Vista at you at a discount, and on Toolfarm and Videoguys they are offering sales/specials on CS4.  So that seems to be the big clue that they are preparing for an upgrade to Windows 7/CS5?

    On that note, from what you can tell, will there be any real speed advantage to Windows 7 over Vista?  Or maybe a little bit, but nothing like picking up 40% by making the switch to a Core i7 on the next build?

    >>Far as OS goes, WinVista Business is a worthy successor to XP Pro. I'd avoid Ultimate for a professional tool like an NLE. Save the space for the graphic, editing and authoring programs you're going to be working with. Besides, do you really need to be able to watch tv on your workstation? I may be old fashioned, but that stuff is more useful on a system dedicated to presentations.

    Can you please say more as to why not Ultimate?  Is Ultimate bad (like Media Center Edition), or is Ultimate just a bloat/waste of $30.00 for added features I don't need/probably will never use?

    Thank you,

    Norman

     

    Posted 7 months ago # Login to Send PM

63. composite1
    Moderator

    

    Norman,

    "Please let me see if I understand.  If I already have an Iogear esata card and a
    1.5 TB eSata external HDD, then I would just get a second one ($179.00), and
    create a 3TB external RAID 0 array?  Then I let Symantec back up D:\ to this
    external 3TB array?  That would be much cheaper."

    That would be a yes. I'm not familiar with Norton back-up software. However, if similar to XP Pro / Vista Biz back-up utility at the end of the day's editing you'd do a 'hard backup' from the internal RAID to your external one. Advantages: less cost, complete back up of raided drives. Disadvantages: no immediate redundancy of data and potential data loss if one drive goes down. Yet, on our recent build faulty file structuring on the internal caused us to lose 4 drives (weird for Western Digital's in my experience.) Fortunately, all data was saved because we previously backed everything up to an external RAID.

    Depending on how many slots your esata raid card has and what its max capacity is you may be able to have a 4TB + external setup. You can do some serious rendering / finishing with that kind of space. The problem you run into is archiving. So far, the most economical solutions are; tape, DVD (lots and lots of DVD's), Blue Ray (which we haven't gotten into yet, HDD was a much better format) and our current solution, external firewire drives.

    "I have just started to notice the telltale signs of an impending
    upgrade in software.  For example, on TD they now wing Vista at you at
    a discount, and on Toolfarm and Videoguys they are offering
    sales/specials on CS4.  So that seems to be the big clue that they are
    preparing for an upgrade to Windows 7/CS5?"

    And now my friend you can see.... I cannot tell you how much I despise the software companies. Though I love many of the products they put forth and as a business person I can completely see their selling strategy, but as a consumer and user ENOUGH ALREADY! Adobe used to put out updates (v.1.1.2 etc.) until they got to a significant point where they'd put out the next version. Then they went to putting out the v.5 then shortly releasing the next full version. Now they don't even bother with that stuff anymore. CS3 was released in mid '07 and CS4 came out in mid '08. Dollars to doughnuts CS5 gets unveiled at NAB this year and released in May or June this year. They don't even allow the guru's time to get the 'how to books' written and published for one version before they move onto the next! I applaud (look at questioningly) companies that can afford / accept the 'merry-go-round'. My company's not going to do that. We might upgrade to 5, but they don't allow enough time to get full mastery of the software. Granted, you may have long-term skill built up with the core tools (we upgraded to CS3 from the Digital Video Collection Production Bundle (2002) Despite what the demographic and marketing weenies say, it still takes years to get mastery of your tools as most professionals aren't chained to their workstations 24/7 (you still have to sleep, eat and poop.)

    Far as Win7 goes, everything I've heard about it so far is that it's just a stripped down version of Vista. Or as I like to call it (de-mac-ing of the interface.) Vista can be a memory hog, but just turn off all the 'doo-dads' you don't need. I recently tried the Aero theme and though it was pretty (like a mac) it was sucking up an additional 500 - 1000MB of memory! Changed the theme back to Visa Basic, problem solved.

    "Is Ultimate bad (like Media Center Edition), or is Ultimate just a
    bloat/waste of $30.00 for added features I don't need/probably will
    never use?"

    Ultimate isn't bad if you're not using it for your workstation. If you plan on showing presentations, or previewing client edits and what not then it's fine. On your workstation(s) the less 'extras' (or junk in the vernacular) the better. This is a good use for your older machines that you've reallocated to other tasking.

     

    Posted 7 months ago # Login to Send PM

64. NormanWillis
    Member

    

    >>I'm not familiar with Norton back-up software. However, if similar to XP Pro / Vista Biz back-up utility at the end of the day's editing you'd do a 'hard backup' from the internal RAID to your external one.

    I am not familiar with Vista Biz backup.  Hopefully you can clue me in?

    The thing about Norton/Symantec is that it allows for incremental backups, which saves disk space (which then allows for a lot more backups).  This is pretty handy with a backup on the OS drive, because you can keep a full backup of your fresh install, so in case your boot drive ever gets corrupted, you can restore it pretty quickly, without having to purchase an additional backup drive.

    One can also mount the disk image as a virtual drive, so if you want to dig into a past image and pull out a particular file, you can do that.  Not that I have ever used that feature....

    If Vista Ultimate/Biz has these features, then perhaps the thing to do is just not to renew Symantec once it reaches the end of its useful life.  One of the things I appreciate about MS is how they tend to incorporate the main features of other useful programs right into the OS, over time.

    >>Depending on how many slots your esata raid card has and what its max capacity is you may be able to have a 4TB + external setup. You can do some serious rendering / finishing with that kind of space.

    OK, sorry to be so dense.  It's got four slots, but if my internal D:\ array is only 2TB, then what advantage is there in purchasing 4TB of external array, over a simple 2TB?  Is it important/useful to save all of one's previous versions until finishing?  Or what am I not getting?

    Thank you,

    Norman

     

     

     

     

    Posted 7 months ago # Login to Send PM

65. NormanWillis
    Member

    

    >>Then they went to putting out the v.5 then shortly releasing the next full version. Now they don't even bother with that stuff anymore. CS3 was released in mid '07 and CS4 came out in mid '08. Dollars to doughnuts CS5 gets unveiled at NAB this year and released in May or June this year. They don't even allow the guru's time to get the 'how to books' written and published for one version before they move onto the next! I applaud (look at questioningly) companies that can afford / accept the 'merry-go-round'.

    It'll probably get worse than that, before they are done.  One reason MS went to the "Windows 95" format was that they wanted to start charging an annual fee for the use of their software (i.e., lease agreements), and that is still their goal.  It is enough to make one want to go Linux (except that MS is in talks to purchase Sun, hmm).

    But we know that all things work together for good, to those who are chosen by the Father, and are called according to His purposes, so no problems here.

    Norman

    Posted 7 months ago # Login to Send PM

66. NormanWillis
    Member

    

    Hi Comp.

    I looked for your machine builds on your site, but did not see them.

    When you go to build a new machine, how do you do that?  And how do you research the parts?

    Do you analyze someone else's build, and then try to duplicate it yourself?

    Or do you follow the technical ezines (tom's hardware, etc)?

    Thanks.

    Posted 7 months ago # Login to Send PM

67. composite1
    Moderator

    

    Norman,

    "I am not familiar with Vista Biz backup.  Hopefully you can clue me in?"

    Vista's back up doesn't do incremental backups. It can do straighforward file backups, single drive backups or complete system backups. Though not as convenient as an incremental, backing up your files with it is close to 'idiot proof' (which comes in handy when you have multiple editors working on a project.)

    "if my internal D:\ array is only 2TB, then what advantage is there in
    purchasing 4TB of external array, over a simple 2TB?  Is it
    important/useful to save all of one's previous versions until finishing?"

    Yes you would want to save your different versions and specific renders. If you saw in the post-production section of the "Iron Man" special features disk, they discussed how they had different versions archived as changes were made before picture lock. Hopefully, you wouldn't have to do more than 1 (production gods forbid or 2) final renders as they are the most time consuming and potentially most expensive portion of the finishing process. You want your internal RAID to hold your active project files and do your working renders. You use your external RAID for the load bearing like holding raw source media, rendered clips and project backups. Having the external 3TB like you mentioned will give you that option, plus you could make it a redundant raid or another raid 0. The extra slots give you additional ports to connect drives to be raided or left as singles.

    "I looked for your machine builds on your site, but did not see them."

    Hmm. I mentioned the site so folks could see the projects we had done with in-house builds (except for the Navy one, that was an Avid Media Composer set up.) We're currently getting ready to 'burn the site to the ground' and rebuild anew. I was going to put a blog or two on the new site, yeah I guess showing some of our builds will be good material as well.

    "Do you analyze someone else's build, and then try to duplicate it yourself?"

    Sort of. I've never duplicated a build part for part. More often than not, I always find something that works better or as good for less money. I do however, get motivated by other products. Last year when I saw HP's top of the line workstations (with much drooling) I wondered, 'For the same amount of money, how much of that system could I build in-house and still have left over for software?' Our latest build is based on the HP I looked at and except for a slower processor (2.4GHz quad duo OC'd to 2.8) as the HP had 2x3.0GHz quads, it in many respects rivals the HP because it has 4x the memory (8GB), twice the GPU power (2 PNY Geoforce 8800GT's) and 4 (count'em 4)TB's worth of internal drive space, plus CS3 Master Collection and 2 28" HDMI monitors for 4/5th's of what the hp workstation cost. Oh and there's a pro Sound Card in there too plus the external raid card.

    Posted 7 months ago # Login to Send PM

68. composite1
    Moderator

    

    For anyone that's interested, here's a unique application for an in-house built render farm.

    http://hackaday.com/2008/09/30/6-pcs-in-one-clear-case/

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69. NormanWillis
    Member

    

    >>Vista's back up doesn't do incremental backups. It can do straighforward file backups, single drive backups or complete system backups. Though not as convenient as an incremental, backing up your files with it is close to 'idiot proof' (which comes in handy when you have multiple editors working on a project.)

    Well, using the software within Vista means one does not have to purchase other software, and complete system backups is probably all anyone really needs; especially if one has a big enough backup.  So the 3/4 TB idea sounds pretty good.

    Thank you. 

    Posted 7 months ago # Login to Send PM

70. GlobalShows
    Member

    

    Hello Comp,

    Sorry for the delayed response. Tax time! 

    <<You've got a fair rig for doing 'less than broadcast quality DV'. However, if you want to work in HD (and you will) your current system won't push it. Though your CPU's fast enough, you're going to need at minimum 2GB of RAM (4GB or more is better) to help with rendering and other computer processes.>>

    Well, this mobo maxes out at 2GB, so I am going to put in the new RAM

    <<Is that a 'Promise' Card you're running the RAID array off of?>>

    Yep

    <<In my honest opinion it's time to move to another system.>>

    Thanks for the advice. I'll just do the RAM upgrade and stick a fork in this one. Although I do have one question below...

     <<I'd avoid Ultimate for a professional tool like an NLE>>

    Yeah. Not being a pro, I thought Media Center was a good thing when I bought this system. I should have paid more attention, as I ended up with software and features I either don't need, or just downright interfere with Adobe CS (particularly Premier Pro). I ended up un-installing all of the media center software. One question though, this system has two GPU's, one being the "Giga Pocket" for inputting video to the Sony Media Center apps. Any idea if I could replace that with another GPU that would be beneficial to Adobe CS (and compatible with this system)? I am guessing "No" as it seems this system was really not meant to be upgraded. I assume that if there were another GPU that would benefit this system, it would require another case and power supply which seems like going a bit far to upgrade this system. Otherwise, I will keep it intact and build a new system when the need arises. Any thoughts on replacing the "giga pocket" gpu?

    Posted 7 months ago # Login to Send PM

71. composite1
    Moderator

    

    Global,

    Use the cash you'd spend on a new GPU to put it in your next rig. Your old rig with that extra RAM will make a good DAW or web video editor after you've moved to a more modern rig. Far as windows OS's, much as I loved XP Pro Vista Biz SP1 and whatever the Pro flavor of Win7 will be your best bet for your next rig.

    Posted 7 months ago # Login to Send PM

72. NormanWillis
    Member

    

    Hi Comp.

    OK, I am working on backup for D:\.  D:\ is two internal 1TB Seagate Barracuda 7200 RPM drives.  I really like your idea of backing them up to an external RAID 0 array via an IoGear eSata RAID card.  It seems much cheaper than a Drobo (and the Drobo does not do eSata: only Firewire).

    I have the IoGear eSata RAID card installed, and also I presently have one 1.5TB Seagate FreeAgent Xtreme external hdd installed.

    http://www.amazon.com/Seagate-FreeAgent-External-Drive-Black-ST315005FPA2E3-RK/dp/B001FWCB8Q/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

    I was ready to purchase two 1.5TB Seagate FreeAgent Xtreme drives and then put them in a RAID 0 external, but I could not find them on Tiger Direct.  Then I saw on Amazon.com that (while Seagate normally gets perfect reviews) this particular model gets really mixed reviews, with as many one star reviews as it gets four-and-five-star reviews combined. 

    I have a few of the Seagate 1TB USB 2.0 external hdd's.  I have never had any problems with my USB drives (and they get great reviews).  I have also never had any problems with my eSata drive; but then I have not used it very much, either. 

    Q: If the eSata model gets lousy reviews, then perhaps I should not buy any more of them?  Perhaps I should do something different?

    For reference, there is always the Drobo ($398.56 empty, after rebate):

    http://www.amazon.com/Data-Robotics-DR04DD10-FireWire-Automated/dp/B001CZ9ZEE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1240129363&sr=8-1

    However, as another alternative, I also have one Thermaltake BlacX eSata dock installed.

    http://www.amazon.com/Thermaltake-BlacX-eSATA-Docking-Station/dp/B001A4HAFS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1240128499&sr=1-1

    The docks are $42.99 each.
    They also offer a combination of the dock plus a 1TB Seagate for $127.98. 
    So I could hypothetically get four of these rigs for = $511.92, plus $80.00 for four 6' eSata cables.

    Alternately, I can get the Seagate 1.5TB internal hdds for $129.99 at TD:

    http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4138742&CatId=4357

    So, hypothetically, I could get three more docks for $42.99 x 3 = $128.97
    Plus four 1.5 TB Seagates for $129.99 x 4 = $519.96
    Plus $19.99 for 6' eSata cables x 4 = $79.96
    Equals = $728.89 (plus tax, shipping and handling)

    As compared to the Drobo for $398.56
    Plus four 1.5 TB Seagates + $519.96
    plus no cables (because I have firewire cables) = $918.52

    Except because the way Drobo operates, I could probably start with just two 1.5TB drives, and that would give me enough capacity to get going, and then I can add more drives, later as the prices on hdd's come down. So to start off with a Drobo and just two drives would give me:

    One Drobo2 at $398.56
    Plus two 1.5 TB Seagates at $259.98
    Equals $658.54, plus tax, shipping and handling.

    So I could actually get started for cheaper if I get the Drobo; and then I can expand as we go.

    Am I making sense?  Or am I all confused?

    Thank you,

    Norman

     

    Posted 7 months ago # Login to Send PM

73. NormanWillis
    Member

    

    Whoops.

    http://www.drobo.com/resources/drobocalculator.php

    Because of the redundancy thing, it looks like I would need three of the 1.5 TB drives with a Drobo before I could get started.

    So basically I would be looking at about $788.53 to get started with the Drobo and three 1.5TB drives,
    versus $515.93 to get the docks and drives (3 x $129.99 drives + 2 x $42.99 docks +2 x 19.99 cables, because I already have one dock and cable).

    So if I go with the exposed hdd's it is $515.93, and if I go with the Drobo it is $788.53, or $272.60 difference (plus whatever difference in shipping and so forth).

    Would that look kind of hokey, to have three eSata docks with exposed drives?  Would there be any problem with that?  And would you recommend it?

    Or what would you recommend?

    Thank you,

    Norman

     

    Posted 7 months ago # Login to Send PM

74. NormanWillis
    Member

    

    Hi Comp.

    I went to Tiger Direct to order the GTX 260:

    http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4151772&sku=B52-261 

    I selected this card specifically because it recommends a 525W power supply, which is what I have on my new box.  However, when I called sales to see if it came with all of the necessary connectors, the sales representative told me that the 525W number was a minimum, and that I would need at least a 600W PSU for that particular card if I wanted to run it reliably, unless I had absolutely no other peripherals on the machine.

    I told him that I thought I read somewhere that the maximum draw on that particular card was 175 Watts.  However, he told me that unless I got a larger PSU, I was running the risk of the machine shutting itself down, for lack of enough power.

    May I ask you if I have a big enough power supply for this machine?  I have:
    Two 250GB WD hdd's for C:\
    Two 1TB Seagate hdd's for D:\
    Palit GeForce 8600GT Super +1GB video card (I was hoping to upgrade to the GTX 260)
    8 GB Crucial RAM
    4 GB ReadyBoost RAM
    Keyboard
    Mouse
    Contour Shuttle Pro
    Two monitors (but they are externally powered)
    Seagate 1TB USB external hdd (externally powered)
    Seagate 1.5TB eSata FreeAgent Xtreme hdd (externally powered)
    Thermaltake eSata dock (externally powered)
    UPS is APC Back-UPS XS 1500
    Speakers and sound card are all external, and are externally powered.

    Maybe there is something I am not getting, but is my power supply really too small? 

    As we spoke earlier, I am hoping to shoehorn either a BlackMagic MultiBridge2 or some kind of accelerator card into the second PCIeX-16 slot when the time comes.  I just want to bump this box to the Core2 Quad Q9650, and then get this GTX 260, and then run with this box for a long time, while I save up my dollars for a newer SLI machine.  Do I really need a larger power supply in order to run this card?

    Thank you,

    Norman

     

     

    Posted 7 months ago # Login to Send PM

75. NormanWillis
    Member

    

    Hi Comp.

    One last question tonight (and perhaps the most important one):

    I am not really sure how an external RAID 0 array works.  With an external RAID 0 array through an IoGear eSata card: what could happen if I were to have (Heaven forbid) a massive failure on C:\, or on the motherboard, such that I lost the machine?

    If I had to move the external RAID 0 array to another machine, or if I had to replace C:\ or the mobo, would that break the D:\ or the external RAID 0 arrays?  (And would I possibly lose those arrays?)

    Even if the Drobo2 does cost $280.00 more, if it would keep me from having a catastrophic data loss, then it woul dbe worth it, wouldn't it?

    Thank you,

    Norman

    Posted 7 months ago # Login to Send PM

76. NormanWillis
    Member

    

    Hi Comp.

    Good morning.

    >>The Multibridge Pro2 is the 'step down' version of the Multibridge Eclipse which is a muuuuuuuuuuch more affordable alternative to the Avid Nitris line of breakout boxes and does nearly the same thing. The Eclipse Pro2 does everything the Eclipse does (except) it has half the array of pro connections and no cool flashing LED's on the front. That's the huge difference between the Pro2 and the Matrox. The RTX2 breakout box doesn't have professional connections for audio and video. No HDMI (for straight to NLE capture), no XLR's, BNC's for HD or SD analog connections, no RS-422 port for remote control of pro decks and no SDI connectors for affordable pro cameras like Canon's XH-G1, XL-H1 or JVC's GYHD250. And if the 'Production God's' willing you get hold of a RED ONE it would be a shame not to be able to just hook it up because you don't have an SDI connection. And yes, if you have collaborators who have been rendered hopelessly subsurvient to the mac empire (that one's for my fellow producer who's been lamenting his wallet lightening purchase of a new G5 setup) then you can easily hook it up to their system and off they go (just wipe up after you're done.) As for whether it will accelerate Vegas, I currently have no answer. Currently, it has drivers to support it but I haven't seen anything more about its performance with Vegas. Lastly, I'd take it in stages; gas your current system far as it can go / you can afford. Then the next system build / get built something with a particular software in mind. The good thing about Avid is they have 'stages' too. Now that Media Composer is their lower - mid-line workhorse they've adapted their breakout boxes to meet the need. Mojo DS is where you'll start (but you'll pay $10k for the software and the breakout box) and those same Production Gods willing, you'll move up to Nitris (cha-CHIIIIINGGGGG!)

    I just want to make sure I understood you: The Eclipse Pro 2 is a much cheaper equivalent not only of the Avid Mojo, but of the Avid Nitris line of breakout boxes?

    Thank you,

    Norman

    Posted 7 months ago # Login to Send PM

77. NormanWillis
    Member

    

    Hi Comp.

    >>A straight 2.66GHz quad duo core will push CS4 and combined with RAM of 4GB or more and one or more 512GB GPU's you'll have a fine working machine.

    I have been re-reading and thinking a lot about what you said.  This question may seem redundant, but I need to ask it for clarity:

    If a straight 2.66 GHz quad duo core will push CS4, then why does Adobe list the system requirement at 3.2 GHz for HDV?

    Do you mean a 2.66 is enough for simple HD or .avi?  And if so, what is the minimum sysreq for HDV?

    Thank you,

    Norman

     

    Posted 7 months ago # Login to Send PM

78. NormanWillis
    Member

    

    Hi Comp.

    I contacted B&H Photo & Video.  The man I spoke with denied that the BlackMagic Bridge had any acceleration capabilities at all.

    Do you have firsthand knowledge that it does?

    Thank you,

    Norman

    Posted 7 months ago # Login to Send PM

79. composite1
    Moderator

    

    Uhy!

    I'm on a shoot for a few days and lots of questions pop up! Where to start?

    "Would that look kind of hokey, to have three eSata docks with exposed drives?  Would there be any problem with that?  And would you recommend it?"

    No, it wouldn't. As long as your gear doesn't have stray wires hanging out and presents an orderly appearance I doubt any of your clients will sweat exposed harddrives. In fact it may enhance your outfit's 'high-tech' feel (function over form and all.) I didn't see the thermaltakes you mentioned either, but there are a number of suitable options available. Concerning 'Toasters' or HDD Docks I don't have any experience with them as they only came out last year. However, it is an excellent idea if the drive will be treated as a 'removable' and the system won't get bent looking for it when it's not connected. That would be an excellent option for client drives and 'backup only' drives. I wouldn't recommend a toaster for a RAID setup. Once you've pulled a drive out in a Raid 0 the integrity's broken and good luck trying to get your files out.

    To get a good idea of what size power supply you're looking at ASUS has a Power Supply Calculator you can check your stats on:

    http://support.asus.com/PowerSupplyCalculator/PSCalculator.aspx?SLanguage=en-us

    "If a straight 2.66 GHz quad duo core will push CS4, then why does Adobe list the system requirement at 3.2 GHz for HDV?"

    It took me a minute to figure that out too. I pulled the stats from the adobe site and it reads;

    System requirements

    Windows
    2GHz or faster processor for DV; 3.4GHz for HDV; dual 2.8GHz for HD*

    All the information I've found points to these being the minimums for single core CPU's. Our current build uses a 2.4GHz Quadcore Duo OC'd to 2.8. It pushed HDV at 2.4 just fine. I tweaked it just to see if we could get more out of it. When we upgrade, it will be to a 3.0.

    "I contacted B&H Photo & Video. The man I spoke with denied that the BlackMagic Bridge had any acceleration capabilities at all."

    The Multi-bridge pro2 through its hardware architecture supports real-time effects for selected NLE programs. Here's the link to the tech spec sheet:
    http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/multibridge/techspecs/
     

    Posted 7 months ago # Login to Send PM

80. NormanWillis
    Member

    

     

    Hey Comp.

    >>I'm on a shoot for a few days and lots of questions pop up!

    Lol.  Sorry about that. I did not know.  I was trying to do my research before I wrote you.

    >>To get a good idea of what size power supply you're looking at ASUS has a Power Supply Calculator.

    I went to the Asus calculator, and it said I need a PSU with 750 Watts.  I found a model for 875W that specs into the next larger workstation, the Dell T5400.  I contacted Dell technical support, and they said they "would not guarantee it", but said it should work/fit, so I bought a used one on Ebay for 50 bucks.  It should be here in about a week.

    It was very educational pulling out the power supply.  It was a whole lot easier than I thought.  Then, once I had it out I saw what was left in the case, and I realized that what you were saying is true: it really is as easy as just picking out the right components, and then stuffing them into the right case, isn't it?

    >>The Multi-bridge pro2 through its hardware architecture supports real-time effects for selected NLE programs. Here's the link to the tech spec sheet:
    http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/multibridge/techspecs/

    Yeah, but is that the same as saying it will accelerate Avid?

    Thank you for your help.

    Norman

    Posted 7 months ago # Login to Send PM

81. composite1
    Moderator

    

    Norman,

    No worries. I'm just glad this thread is turning out to be useful.

    "It was very educational pulling out the power supply.  It was a whole lot easier than I thought.  Then, once I had it out I saw what was left in the case, and I realized that what you were saying is true: it really is as easy as just picking out the right components, and then stuffing them into the right case, isn't it?"

    Yup. It's almost criminal how easy it is and how much consumers get charged for the 'feeling of security' they get from tech support. Granted, everyone is not qualified to work a computer let alone start taking one apart. But once you have a clear idea of what components do and where they go, the hardest part is doing the research to get the proper parts. The fun part starts when the 'stuffing' process begins and making said components play nice together. "WHY ISN'T THIS WORKING!!! Ah, good times, good times.... Despite the ease, you still have to take all the proper precautions (grounding, powering off and not 'cavemanning' components in when they don't seem to fit.) When you do your first build, I strongly reccomend having an up to date copy of 'The Idiot's Guide to Builiding PC's' in hand. Some of the info may seem infantile to someone like yourself whose done research on their components, but the building steps are solid and in the 'notes' there are always those little important tidbits that will keep you from getting bit in the ass. Having a copy on hand for simple upgrades wouldn't hurt either.

    "... is that the same as saying it will accelerate Avid?"

    Last year at NAB I specifically asked BMD's reps whether the MBP2 would work with Media Composer and they said unequivocally "YES". Since then, I've combed through tons of techincal forums and BMD's site and haven't gotten a hard and fast yes or no. I've contacted their tech office about this and await their response. Now that I think about it, the odds are long against it. Avid as good as their products are hold their proprietary rights just as tightly (and annoyingly) as Apple. I figure the last thing Avid would want is for someone to make a breakout box that does the same thing as their Media Composer Nitris DX for a 14th of  the money? I hope that's not the case. We'll see....

    Posted 7 months ago # Login to Send PM

82. NormanWillis
    Member

    

    Hi Comp.

    >>Now that I think about it, the odds are long against it. Avid as good as their products are hold their proprietary rights just as tightly (and annoyingly) as Apple. I figure the last thing Avid would want is for someone to make a breakout box that does the same thing as their Media Composer Nitris DX for a 14th of  the money?

    Yeah, good point.  Why would they want to let someone else like BMD (or even Matrox) bust in on their obscene profits?

    One thought I keep having is that since Vegas processes based on the number of cores, as the Gigahertz wars becomes the Core-wars, Sony is going to continue to improve.

    But just so I have asked, do you think my progression of Sony-then CS4- then Avid is a logical and intelligent one?  Or since it turns out that this machine will do Avid, would you just go straight for that?

    Thank you,

    Norman

    Posted 7 months ago # Login to Send PM

83. NormanWillis
    Member

    

    >>But just so I have asked, do you think my progression of Sony-then CS4- then Avid is a logical and intelligent one?  Or since it turns out that this machine will do Avid, would you just go straight for that?

    That is, considering that I am not too swift with this kind of thing, and I just figured out Sony....

    Norman

    Posted 7 months ago # Login to Send PM

84. composite1
    Moderator

    

    Norman,

    "But just so I have asked, do you think my progression of Sony-then CS4-
    then Avid is a logical and intelligent one?  Or since it turns out that
    this machine will do Avid, would you just go straight for that?"

    To paraphrase a conversation I had with a martial arts master a while back, '...Master that which you have before seeking new techniques. You will be more formidable using the stick you have mastered than the sword you just bought.'

    I'd build my chops with Vegas first. I had been working with premeire for almost 5 years before I took training in Avid. Currently, I work with Vegas and Premeire Pro (which is way diff from when I worked with 5.5.) We've got Avid Express Pro on our old system (built in '02) and I use it from time to time to keep up on the interface, but I know when I move to MC (more money... sigh) there'll be a learning curve so I'l have to retrain to get up to speed with the new innovations. Yeah, you will have to learn a number of NLE's if you decide to move deeper into the pro arena. The progression you've mentioned is a reasonable one.

    Posted 7 months ago # Login to Send PM

85. NormanWillis
    Member

    

    Sounds like good advice.  "Build on your strengths first; then flesh out your weaknesses."

    OK, so I went to Tom's Hardware, and asked about the PSU.

    http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/260603-28-upgrading-power-supply-dell-t3400-workstation-875w

    The guys there seem to be in agreement that the Asus calculator notwithstanding, since the CoreDuo Quad CPU will draw less than 100W, and the GTX 260 video card will draw just over 100W, not to worry about a thing, but to install the 525W PSU, and don't worry about it.

    OK, so the 875W is already on the way, and if the thing shuts down for power during finishing I can always swap out the PSU.  But now they got me looking at cases, and now I am wondering about airflow.  Some of those gaming cases have astonishing amounts of airflow.  I watched the video on this one, and was blown away:

    http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4146085&CatId=1510

    I was looking at the size of the heatsink on my CPU in my T3400, and I was thinking it was pretty good, but then I watched that video and realized that there is no way my poor little old T3400 can match that one...and with the big old fans, it is bound to be quiet.

    Then I also realized that then I take the sidepanel off of my T3400 and stare at the mobo, the air intake/front of the machine is on the left, and the back of the machine is on the right.  But on all of the cases I am looking at, it is the exact opposite (when staring at the mobo, the front of the machine is on the right, and the back of the machine is on the left).

    Do they make aftermarket cases for Dell T3400's that would improve my airflow?  And if not, since there are no small children and no animals in the house, how would it be just to take the side panel off of the machine, and operate with it that way?  Or does anyone make side-panels with fans and/or mesh?  Or could a guy rig up a mesh screen, to make sure no flies get in there?

    Or would you specifically not do that?

    Thank you for your help.

    Norman

     

     

    Posted 7 months ago # Login to Send PM

86. NormanWillis
    Member

    

    Oh, yeah; one more thing.

    What is the deal with Avid?  Why are they so restrictive on the hardware that they will support?  It seems like they will support Dell, HP and Mac, and that is all.  I was talking to one of the guys at Safe Harbor (http://www.sharbor.com), and he said that Avid used to work with them, but now they will not even give them a spec sheet, so they can design their computers for Avid.

    I thought that limiting the hardware was the reason Sony Beta lost the war with VHS?  Or does Avid know something that we don't?

    Thank you,

    Norman

    Posted 7 months ago # Login to Send PM

87. NormanWillis
    Member

    

    >>Do they make aftermarket cases for Dell T3400's that would improve my airflow?  And if not, since there are no small children and no animals in the house, how would it be just to take the side panel off of the machine, and operate with it that way?  Or does anyone make side-panels with fans and/or mesh?  Or could a guy rig up a mesh screen, to make sure no flies get in there?  Or would you specifically not do that?

    One guy on Tom's Hardware suggested just adding an 80mm fan to the back of the case, to help pull air out.  That sounds like a good idea.

    Norman

    Posted 7 months ago # Login to Send PM

88. composite1
    Moderator

    

    Norman,

    Thanks for the link on the case. TD's pretty good about showcasing components which really helps when you're researching gear. That was one snazzy case. I might roll with something like that if I ever decide to build a watercooled rig. If you check the #3 case next to the video window you'll see the one we used for our latest build. I'd hold off on anything too hardcore on your first build. I prefer towers for my builds because they give me room for harddrives, DVD burners, graphic cards and PCI cards. And you have room to work in. On your first build get a good case with lots of fans and good airflow. In the begining, stick with aircooled systems as they are less complex and less expensive. Get a few (successful) builds under your belt before you push on to watercooling.

    I've never heard of 'aftermarket' cases for the main manufacturer's (Dell, HP, etc.) The only thing like that I remember is when Apple used to allow folks to build 'mac clones'. I wouldn't leave the side panel off the case to improve airflow. All that electronic equipment creates fields which attract dust, moisture and certain destructive insects such as roaches. Putting a bigger fan or two at the rear is a sound idea. Remember, at this point you just want to stabilize your current system as you prepare to buy or build your next.

    As I mentioned earlier in the thread, Avid's malfunction is the same as Apple's. Avid wants to control as many aspects of the production and sale of their products as possible. Years ago when you could only get Media Composer on an apple was because they had an exclusive deal with apple. At the turn of the millenium that deal went sour and avid cut a deal with hp/compaq. Later on, they renegotiated with apple but part of the deal was they could go with some pc companies since they had developed specific crossplatform hardware. As is apple, hp and dell (gateway?) are the only ones who have full tech support from avid. On the one hand, it helps keep the quality assurance level high. On the other it's a monumental PIA for the independent builder. Avid can limit their hardware because they have a strong enough customer base to do what they want. Much as FCP is trying to make inroads, most movies and television programs get cut and or finished on an avid system. That's not going to change anytime soon.

    Posted 7 months ago # Login to Send PM

89. NormanWillis
    Member

    

    Hi Comp.

    I appreciate your comments with regards to leaving the side of the case on.  However, I am going to have to do something.

    The GTX 260 just came in this morning.  I had no idea the card would be that big.  It is a completely full-length card, twice as long as my 8600 GT, and just as tall...except that it has a solid outer shell all the way around it.  Since Matrox wants the bottom PCI X-16 slot, the GTX is going to have to go in the top slot.  The only problem is that there is maybe only 3/16ths" clearance between the air intake for the GTX 260 and the bottom of the shroud that covers the heat sink on the CPU.  I do not believe it will seriously obstruct air intake for the GTX, but it is going to obstruct the airflow for all of the PCI cards below it, as well as for the two D:\ hdd's...something I absolutely do not want.  Add to that the fact that the GTX pushes air out the bottom and sides of the case, and it is going to push lots of heat into the bottom of the case, and right now there is no way for it to get out.

    I would really rather not migrate the guts to another case, especially since I do not know why my case appears to be backwards from all of the other cases on Tiger and NewEgg.  We do not have roaches here (praise Yahweh), one of the few benefits of living in a semi-arid semi-desert region.  Also, we keep the house sprayed pretty well for insects, so there are not a lot of bugs in general.  We also do not get a lot of dust.  However, we do get small flies occasionally, and I imagine they will go for the lights on the Crucial RAM (which I did not know were going to be lit up bright red when I purchased the sticks).  But I am going to have to do something.

    Does anyone make a metal grill or metal mesh, so that I can cut the meat out of the side panel below the GTX, to allow unrestricted airflow?  I did order a super-quiet 92mm fan from NewEgg to mount on the back grill, to pull air out of the back of the case above the GTX:

    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835608005 

    However, that is only going to evacuate air from above the GTX.  It does not look like it will do much to help circulate air beneath the GTX card.

    Below the 120mm CPU fan, Dell has also mounted what looks to be a 92mm fan which blows air over the top of the two bottom hdd's, and then onto the lower PCI cardslots.  However, with the GTX in there, there is no outlet for that airflow.  Some of the airflow might make it up through the 3/16ths" gap between the top of the GTX and the bottom of the CPU heat sink shroud (and will probably get sucked down into the GTX), but the rest of that 92mm air is going to bounce off of the bottom of the GTX card, and swirl around in the lower PCI card space, where there is no outlet. 

    If I do not remove the cover, I could cut the meat out of the side cover, and install either a metal grill, or mesh.  Alternately, I could drill about a bazillion holes (or hit it with a shotgun...lol).  But either I have to seriously ventilate the lower part of the side cover, or else I have to leave it off. 

    The Matrox RT.X2 will populate the lower PCI X-16 slot.  It also is a full-sized card (and I want the extra monitor connection the full-sized RT.X2 offers), so when I look at the case, all I see is maybe room to mount two teentsy 40mm fans in bottom corner, by the back of the case, to push air out.

    Maybe I need to do that.

    I just ordered three 40mm fans.  Let's see what I can figure out.

    Norman

    P.S.  Yeah, and next time I am purchasing a tower case!

     

    Posted 7 months ago # Login to Send PM

90. yourvideographer
    Member

    

    Hello there,

    I started reading this forum, I got 3/4 down on the first page and realized that this computer jargon was over my head.  I was a News Photojournalist for the past 5 years at a couple of stations.  I have the passion to shoot the best video and put it together.  I am very creative and use my right side of my brain more than my left.  So what I am saying is my strenghts are being creative, shooting, and editing the video.  I wish I could use all of this great information in these post to make the best computer for a NLE System, but I was not blessed with those talents. 

    So, what I am looking for is a solution to my problem of trying to find the best NLE System with the best computer that will do the job.  Right now, I have decided to start a video production business and my budget for this NLE System and Computer is below $5,000.  I would like to put video on the website I will create, put video on the iphone to show people demos of my work as I am marketing my business, be able to edit HD and SD footage on the system making DVDs and bluray discs.  I haven't decided if I want to go laptop or desktop?  I understand that the desktop will probably be more powerful than the laptop, but you can take the laptop anywhere to edit.  Good example, if I have a client that wants a sample right there and then, I have the ability to do so on the laptop.  I understand the importance of having monitors to hook up to the NLE System is important, I am guessing it is best to use a desktop for the monitors.  Bottomline is, I just need a system to do the job and not get in my way by creating more problems that I don't need.  I would like to start out simple, build a good foundation, and have the ability to put more powerful parts in the computer.  If I can think of anything else, I will add it.  I may start my own forum for this question.  All of your answers and postings will be much appreciated!

    Thank you,

    Chad   

    Oh one more thing, I have used Grass Valley NewsEdit, Final Cut Pro. and Tape to tape.  Here are my impressions of some of the systems.  It seams like Vegas is a good user friendly system, but I am wondering if it is powerful enough to do professional work versus prosumer work.  I read in this forum that it may be lacking in some areas.  Final Cut Express would not do the job, because I read something that it does not work with timecode or something like that.  Final Cut Studio seems like it is pretty expensive, but not compared to Avid.  It also seems High Maintence and picky of how to do things.  Adobe Premiere Pro CS4 seems like a pretty good system that has gotten rave reviews from some of my colleagues.  I saw a Matrox Product Demo that was using Premiere and I liked that you could change the windows around, if you didn't like where the bins were versus your source and record windows.  One negative thing that I saw though was if you were typing something in the file search folder, you would have to type matrox in, if you were using anything matrox.  I figured that they could make it a little bit easier and more functional for your work flow.  Edius has my interest to, since I used Grass Valley NewsEdit, but I noticed it doesn't seem like there are a lot people using it.  Good Example there is no Forum for Edius.  Again thank you for your responses, I hope this info helps.

     

    Posted 7 months ago # Login to Send PM

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