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NormanWillis
Member

Hi Comp.

Check this out. This thing looks twice as powerful as the Z800.

http://www.boxxtech.com/Downloads/Products/renderBOXX/r10300_SpecSheet.pdf

It has four Nehalem-class Xeon processors!

(Also, I guess LightWave runs on a Mac).

Norman

Posted 5 months ago # Login to Send PM
NormanWillis
Member

And wait: isn't 196GB of RAM 0.196TB?

Posted 5 months ago # Login to Send PM
composite1
Moderator

"This thing looks twice as powerful as the Z800."

Norman,

A 16 core rig is hardcore. However, this unit is a renderfarm management unit. The management unit is the first computer in the render chain. I didn't see a price on it. My guess is it's pricey. A unit like the Z800 would be where your hardcore compositing, color correction and perhaps high-end audio would all be combined into your production cut. With 192GB of RAM and 8 cores you could also do a final render out to HD or 2k+. Running the same project through a renderfarm would free up the unit to work on other projects. 192GB = 1.92TB. I'm curious about mac's claim that OSX Snow leopard will handle 16TB. That's a pretty ballsy claim, but pretty far reaching seeing how current mobo architecture is only now reaching the 1.92TB RAM mark. One thing about it, you wouldn't see your average 'macie' rollin' into the apple store to pick up a unit with 16TB in it without having to sign a 'blood contract'.

Nope, Lightwave runs on PC and mac. You can get Blender for free.

Posted 5 months ago # Login to Send PM
NormanWillis
Member

>>You can get Blender for free.

Good to know. Thanks!

>>A unit like the Z800 would be where your hardcore compositing, color correction and perhaps high-end audio would all be combined into your production cut. With 192GB of RAM and 8 cores you could also do a final render out to HD or 2k+. Running the same project through a renderfarm would free up the unit to work on other projects.

With a monster like the Z800 or the 'Comp1', do you suppose one could simultaneously render and edit? Or is the rendering going to chew up all of the HDD throughput, such that you really need a separate machine for rendering?

>>Nope, Lightwave runs on PC and mac.

You are taking away one of my reasons to 'stay PC.'

Is it possible to mix PC's and Macs in the same network? Or is it best all one way, or the other?

Thank you,

Norman

Posted 5 months ago # Login to Send PM
NormanWillis
Member

Hey Comp,

How does software work on a render farm?

Does one need to purchase separate licenses, if it would make one have more than one instance of the program running at one time?

Thank you,

Norman

Posted 5 months ago # Login to Send PM
composite1
Moderator

"You are taking away one of my reasons to 'stay PC.'"

Norman,

Not at all. As I have always said, there are advantages to either platform. Both can do the same things you just have to find the software and gear to facilitate what you plan to do. I was quite fluent with mac's when I changed over to PC. At the time I would be at work on the mac and go home and do my own projects on a PC. After awhile, I began to prefer the PC for the numerous reasons I've already mentioned. Mac is a stable platform (depending on what you call stable) and so is Windows for the same reasons. The biggest differences between the two are primarily the file system (FAT 32 mac, NTFS win.) I much prefer the NTFS file system as it allows for really big video files (aprox. 1 150 year clip in DV if you had a drive that could hold it!) FAT 32 is ancient tech. It works mind you, but NTFS is more modern and more efficient to use in my opinion. The other glaring difference is the fact that you can still build your own PC legally. Truthfully, the only reason I would have a mac in my shop is for visiting editors or clients that couldn't edit their way out of a wet paper bag without FCP. Not that I don't like them or FCP, but I can do most and some things with Premiere, Vegas and Avid that FCP can't. Blue-ray anyone?

Yes you can 'mix and match'. However, most of my IT bud's hate it. According to them mac is not as efficient on a network as windows particularly when they are on the same one. They say it does work and I've seen it done, they just hate having to work on it. Now, I hear tell that mac networks run just fine alone. You'd have to ask several IT specialists to get a real picture.

No, you don't have to purchase several licenses for software on a renderfarm. Read the article renderfarming and it will give you a much better explanation than I can. Also, keep an eye out for this month's Studio Monthly for an article about a producer who transitioned to making videogame trailers. He was quite specific about why when he built his editing suite he knew 'it couldn't be a Mac-based workflow'. It's a good example of how depending on what work you're doing will truly decide what platform is best for it.

Posted 5 months ago # Login to Send PM
NormanWillis
Member

Hi Comp.

How are you doing?

I got blasted by a 'good avalance' of stuff, and am presently still buried, will have to catch up as I can. I will try to read the render farming article later, as I believe that is a way I would like to go. Thank you very much for sending me the article. If there is anything else good on render farming I should read, please let me know.

By the way, about the Matrox RT.X2, I was talking to a guy with Cineform, and he was saying that I would have much better success with Cineform Prospect HD and one of the new Matrox MX.O2 boxes with the MAX technology chip. He said the quality of the Cineform codec is far superior to that of the RT.X2, and the MX.02 with MAX would give me the ability to encode H.264 faster than real time. Since most of our views will be on the web, I thought I should ask you about that.

Thank you,

Norman

Posted 5 months ago # Login to Send PM
composite1
Moderator

Norman,

No worries. I am also trying to stay ahead of 'an avalance' as I've got several pending in-house editing projects staring at me waiting to get done. Still trying to recover from the last 2 weeks worth of shooting. Fun, but tiring. You can see our latest commercial at: http://www.dreadedenterprises.com/Screen in the sample videos section. Did all the post work on the new system and it works just fine. Now, I'm sort of wanting to build that beast I sent you the specs on. That will have to wait.

When I get a moment, I'll look up those specs on the Matrox boxes. I'm still locked down on a Multibridge for this current system, however the AJA Xena line is looking interesting for the 'beast' maybe. I was looking to roll with Media Composer down the line, but the Adobe/Sony workflow we've got going is starting to gel. Maybe when they bust out with CS5 I'll be looking to build that new rig....

Posted 5 months ago # Login to Send PM
NormanWillis
Member

Hi Comp.

I thought you would appreciate this.

I have been on Creative Cow a lot (grazing). John Rofrano of VASST is telling me that he and all of the people he knows use in-house built PC's. He says that because MS and Intel work so closely together, that so long as one sticks to an Intel processor, an Intel motherboard, and uses RAM and components that Intel recommends, one essentially has the equivalent of a 'closed system' Mac, for a lot less money; and with more possibilities.

http://www.johnrofrano.com/pcequipment.htm

Apparently it is not Windows that is unstable, but deviations from the MS/Intel standard combinations that causes instability.

I just thought I should pass that along.

I appreciate all of your help in this thread.

Norman

Posted 4 months ago # Login to Send PM
composite1
Moderator

Norman,

Nice article. I too 'graze' at the Cow from time to time. Yeah, there are a lot of myths as to what causes instability with windows products. The biggest cause is as you mentioned coming from parts that don't play nice together due to driver issues. The great advantage of building your own can also be the biggest disadvantage. Being able to 'mix and match' parts can save you time and money up front. But, if you don't do proper research on the system requirements and driver compatibilities, you'll end up 'paying' those savings back by having to replace parts and or time spent on reconfiguring.

Mr. Rofrano is on point about in-house built systems. I personally do not recommend them for the casual user. For the professional editor, freelancer or production house I strongly recommend them provided they have the technical resources and personnel to maintain their systems which by the way they would need anyway.

Yes, the closer you stay to recommended system requirements/compatibility the better. That goes for AMD chips and mobo's as well. So far my latest build has been quite stable. The only oddities have been; CS3 glitches involving the licensing and Vista's protection protocols (fixed), minor weirdness with the 'Gadgets' panel on the desktop after startup (fix by hitting refresh) and the very rare startup stall (fix by restarting system.) I'm just sorry we currently don't have room for that 'super system' I spec'ed out!

And you're welcome.

Posted 4 months ago # Login to Send PM
NormanWillis
Member

Yeah, well at least I finally understand why Avid specs their machines out like they do.

I wish I knew how to go back and change my vote from 'modified Dell' to 'home-built'!

Norman

Posted 4 months ago # Login to Send PM
composite1
Moderator

Norman,

You voted your mind at the time. It's been a long thread and a great deal of info and research on your own later. Pre-built systems obviously have their uses or they wouldn't be as prevalent. If you think about it, though there are tens of thousands of in-house built units out there the number wouldn't scratch the paint on the number of pre-built's that get made each year.

As I mentioned at the begining of this thread, building your own is not for the casual user or the technically disinclined. You must have a strong background in computer usage and understand the basics of how they work. Once you get past the concept of the unit being 'sacrosanct', you'll be able to 'crack open' the case and find the computer is just a machine that can be altered. With practice, you'll get to the point where you'll see a pre-built and either know you could build a better one or be ready research you could.

Yeah, Avid has been at this since the beginning. That Apple has been able to gain on them is because of their initial association and their similar tightness on the technology. Avid really stepped away from them when they went cross-platform. If apple ever unpinched their sphincters and allowed some of their software to go crossplatform, they would probably dominate for a while. Lately, I've changed my mind about going back to Avid. I've been working with the Adobe Suite for the last year and it's really a pro setup. I'm still a hardcore Vegas Suite user (haven't gotten 9 yet) and find that there are things Premiere can do and Vegas can do so I use them both. The combination of the two suites allows me to do some serious finishing work and with certain compatible hardware options, I can do similar work at far less expense than putting together a Media Composer setup. Now that money all around is much tighter, that is a serious consideration.

Posted 4 months ago # Login to Send PM
NormanWillis
Member

That MacVideo that said ProApps was going down along with Steve Jobs' health really made me think twice about going Apple, or Avid. I had no idea that Avid is going down, and that bit the guy said in the end about Adobe quietly but steadily improving CS4 and 5 really made me think hard.

I am looking forward to getting into Creative Suite, but right now I am just trying to learn all of the ins and outs of Vegas. The software does so much. I will probably build my next machine, and although I will probably build a machine that could run Avid (with "Intel everything", as John Rofrano is recommending) I don't see much reason to spend big bucks on their software. What makes more sense is just to learn Vegas, and then pick up CS-whatever after that.

So far Vegas Pro 9 has been really stable. It is on a fresh install of Vista 64 Ultimate (b/c I need the language support), and not one crash so far. Way better than I expected. I did get an external USB drive for 'drive wipes' like you suggested somewhere; and if the machine ever gets unstable, then a clean install is only a couple of hours away.

So it looks like I also will be heading for the Vegas/CSX combo....

Posted 4 months ago # Login to Send PM
composite1
Moderator

Norman,

Yeah the Apple/Jobs thing is a real factor. Seeing how the bean counters over there are already rolling with 'iLife' and 'iThis' and 'iWannapuke'. It may well be innovative software, but it will be interesting to see what happens when Jobs ultimately steps down or passes on. Not to mention they're coming out with 'Snow Leopard' and they make some ballsy claims about it's max system requirements. How they are going to back all of that up while still using the FAT32 file system will also be interesting.

Yeah, Avid has their own weirdness going on as well typically, because the bean counters are looking at 'what sells' not 'why it sells'. They seem to be under the auspices that their primary market is big-time Hollywood. But, like they implied in those discussions all that's starting to change.

The Sony/Adobe combo is a pretty good fit. Encore is alot like Cinescore, but I believe the latter is a lot easier to use. I much prefer ACID for the freedom to create with premade loops or your own. Takes a bit of tweaking to make it line up but I think it's much better. Encore has not impressed me. Glad to hear V9 has been stable for you.

Backing up is my main beef with a fully tapeless workflow. You have to put all of that footage onto a drive and drives are fragile. Maybe when the solid-state harddrives become prevalent, larger in capacity and much cheaper they will be a stable option. I find that any savings in time not digitizing is lost in how many redundancies of backup sources needed. Even the vaunted Blue-Ray technology is already obsolete as you can't store any real amount of stock footage on a BR disc. 40GB max for a dual-sided BRD is still going to come out to quite a large and expensive pile when archiving a 500GB+ Drive full of uncompressed HD footage.

Posted 4 months ago # Login to Send PM
NormanWillis
Member

Hi Comp.

>>Backing up is my main beef with a fully tapeless workflow. You have to put all of that footage onto a drive and drives are fragile.

I think the key here is redundancy. You can get a 1TB external USB Seagate Free Agent for $129.00 right now through Tiger Direct, and prices keep dropping. So that's $129.00/1000 GB = $0.129 cents per gigabyte of storage in hdd's, versus $7.00/13GB =$0.54 per GB with HDV tape, or something like, I dunno, 400 times cheaper? So even if you have three external hdd copies of everything (just for redundancy's sake), you are still at least 100 times better off, in the long run.

But I do have a couple of questions for you. Earlier you said that Sony Vegas was optimized for AMD. How big of a factor is that, considering the fact that Intel processors currently outrun/outperform the AMD ones?

And does anyone ever home-build a Xeon?

Norman

Posted 4 months ago # Login to Send PM
composite1
Moderator

Norman,

I'm on the fence on the AMD vs Intel debate. I happen to have had good results with both brands. Now that more programs are developed with AMD in mind, the main things I'm looking at are; speed, price, stability and flexibility. Right now, Intel has the advantage in the flexibility dept. while AMD has the advantage in pricing. Both produce very stable chips but Intel seems to be winning the 'core wars'. I currently am using an Intel Quad in my latest system and don't necessarily have any plans to build anything with an AMD in it. However, that could change.

Concerning your fine argument for HDD backup vs Tape; numbers wise, it is much cheaper when you put it the way you did. But, you also have to figure real-world components into the equation like; power, medium stability and reviewing capabilities.

Power issues are mighty important. With no power, you can't view the footage from a harddrive particularly with the bigboy's you mentioned. With tape, if need be I can take a battery powered camera and a tape, plug it into a battery powered laptop and still keep working. As an aside, you can do the same thing if you have your materials archived on solid-state media (but those are more expensive than tape.)

Medium stability is a major factor as well. Long as the tape was in good condition initally, you use a VTR with clean undamaged heads and store it properly, digital tape will last a very long time. Harddrives are also very good for archiving but you are completely at the mercy of the hdd's mechanics and file system. At any given time you connect your drive to power and to your system it could fail catastrophically. It's a regular occurrance no matter what platform you work with ergo the 'many redundancies' used to back up volatile digital footage. Unless a tape broke, I've never seen one 'crap out' like the many harddrives I've had to recover or lay to rest.

Lastly, you have to factor in what you're viewing it on. If you need a quick look at some archival footage, you can keep a small rechargable player or camera in your archiving area. Whereas with HDD's you are committed to connecting them to a computer or laptop for external drives. The cost of the computer / laptop has to be factored into your overall costs of useage along with it's power usage and time accumulated in it's use (start-up, shutdown, etc.)

Don't get me wrong, I like and utillize HDD storage, but still will store footage on tape as well until the solidstate technology reaches the economical / storage capacity of current HDD's before I make a 100% switch over.

Oh, and I am unaware of anyone who's built a Xeon system.

Posted 3 months ago # Login to Send PM

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